Forum Overview :: Gamerasutra
 
Re: No, fast min-max by ValiumAddict 02/25/2003, 3:39pm PST
Senor Barborito wrote:


Unfortunately no, because the game inevitably devolves into 'RUSH THE CENTER AND PUSH HIM BACK INTO HIS BASE'

Tug of war. All the development that went into Starcraft, all the millions of hours that have been spent playing it have reduced it down to a game of fucking Tug of war. Tell me you don't see something wrong with this.

There's nothing extra-special about Korean fingers or manual dexterity - it's just that at least as far as I and many other people could tell the powergaming madhouse click-frenzy rushes centered around min-max that reduced the game to tug of war came out of that community. It was frustrating as fuck to encounter because you'd try doing something original time after time only to be overwhelmed in a frenzy of non-stop clicking. The 100% efficient build order + the one or two best units that could be obtained quickly just over and over at you like a million fucking bugs in Starship Troopers.

To me RTS games are invalid unless there is an actual balance between rush-tactics and turtle tactics and Starcraft was when I really sat up and noticed 'Holy shit everything I liked about this genre is dead.'

--SB


What tug of war?
That you couldn't outmanoeuvre your troops faster than he could with the mouse?

That comes down to practice doesn't it, then you have Monty's argument. What these high level players have done is figured out a way execute in an efficient manner their best strategy on a micromanagement level. It well and fine for you to dream up original tactics and counters, but until you get good at accomplishing them to full effect. Yes, you're gonna get beat down by a guys who spend hours and hours perfecting their one technique. It's one thing to have a cool idea on paper, it's a long road to actually making it work. Theory only opens the door, it's a long walk.

And starcraft allowed it, most games that last longer than the initial ten minute build order/rush battle eventually did evolved into a sko of counter/counter-counter rock/paper/scissors game. If he was going mass Hydralisks, couple of M&Ms could stop that, Lurker, Pssst, tanks. You just had to know and that was where the fun laid for some of us. Your description of single Uber unit mass produced really doesn't fit. Any half decent starcraft player knows the effective counters to mass units. Fabs mentions this below. UNLIKE MAMMOTH TANKS!!!!!, where you had no effective counter, no matter how clever.

It's tug of war if the two are massing the same damn units and are just crashing tsunami waves into one another over and over and over again. Gods, that IS boring as hell.

What you seem to complaining about is the fact that you aren't as clickety click quick as the other guy.
Again this is practice.

Koreans have a lot of practice, because they spend ALL day doing it. Starcraft is a national culture.
You on the other hand, code websites, have a girlfriend, play other games and occasionally get depressed. Bound to affect spending 24/7 on a computer game.
Yes you're gonna lose against these fanatical fanbois.

Now what i don't get is how C&C is not everything you mentioned as a min/max game. All that ever happened in those games were massing of the particular uber unit that would just roll over everything. And this was in every of it's incarnations, save perhaps with RA2 yuri's revenge. Generals shows inclinations of heading down this very path. (rocket buggies anyone?) Turtling in C&C has never worked, has it?
PREVIOUS NEXT REPLY QUOTE
 
Why I hate RTS and how to make the greatest one EVAR by Tom-Foolery Constructor 02/21/2003, 2:29pm PST NEW
    Re: Why I hate RTS and how to make the greatest one EVAR by FABIO 02/21/2003, 7:23pm PST NEW
        What's wrong with rock/paper/scissors? by FoK 02/23/2003, 9:37pm PST NEW
            Re: What's wrong with rock/paper/scissors? by FABIO 02/23/2003, 11:01pm PST NEW
                Re: What's wrong with rock/paper/scissors? by fok 02/23/2003, 11:11pm PST NEW
            Did you even read the initial post? by Senor Barborito 02/23/2003, 11:10pm PST NEW
                Yeah... by fok 02/24/2003, 12:57am PST NEW
                you just rebuted yourself by FABIO 02/24/2003, 10:04am PST NEW
                    I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by Senor Barborito 02/24/2003, 10:17am PST NEW
                        Willful Misunderstanding by Mr. Palomar 02/24/2003, 12:39pm PST NEW
                        Re: I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by FABIO 02/24/2003, 2:24pm PST NEW
                            Re: I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by FABIO 02/24/2003, 2:26pm PST NEW
                                I did answer you, dumbass. Christ you're thick. by Senor Barborito 02/24/2003, 11:38pm PST NEW
                                    Re: I did answer you, dumbass. Christ you're thick. by FABIO 02/25/2003, 10:56am PST NEW
                                        Re: I did answer you, dumbass. Christ you're thick. by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 7:16pm PST NEW
                                            Fixed quotes. And hopefully clarified for the final time here. by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 7:24pm PST NEW
                                            JU-LIE! JU-LIE! JU-LIE! -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 02/26/2003, 5:21pm PST NEW
                                                Re: JU-LIE! JU-LIE! JU-LIE! -nt- by FABIO 02/26/2003, 9:24pm PST NEW
                        Re: I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by Ice Cream Jonsey 02/24/2003, 3:25pm PST NEW
                            RE: I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by Alternate789 02/24/2003, 4:16pm PST NEW
                            Re: I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying, dumbass by curst 02/24/2003, 11:16pm PST NEW
                Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Monty Cantsin 02/25/2003, 1:40am PST NEW
                    That was easily the stupidest thing you have ever written by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 2:16am PST NEW
                        Re: That was easily the stupidest thing you have ever written by Zseni 02/25/2003, 2:35am PST NEW
                        Koreans: fast index fingers? by Fussbett 02/25/2003, 4:17am PST NEW
                            No, fast min-max by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 7:22am PST NEW
                                Re: No, fast min-max by ValiumAddict 02/25/2003, 3:39pm PST NEW
                                Re: No, fast min-max by TehFieryBalrog 07/05/2007, 9:36pm PDT NEW
                        Re: That was easily the stupidest thing you have ever written by Monty Cantsin 02/25/2003, 4:44pm PST NEW
                    Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Zseni 02/25/2003, 2:26am PST NEW
                        Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Monty Cantsin 02/25/2003, 4:20pm PST NEW
                            Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Zseni 02/25/2003, 5:28pm PST NEW
                                Queneau plays Black and White by Mr. Palomar 02/25/2003, 5:59pm PST NEW
                                Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Monty Cantsin 02/25/2003, 7:35pm PST NEW
                                Re: Did you even read the initial post? by TehFieryBalrog 07/05/2007, 9:40pm PDT NEW
                                    If you're going to respond to 2003 you could get the title right. NT by Soul Calibur 07/05/2007, 9:42pm PDT NEW
                    Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Ray, of Light 02/25/2003, 3:39am PST NEW
                        I used to win money playing Quake regularly by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 7:41am PST NEW
                            "See, I'm really good a video games!" by Irritating kid 02/25/2003, 9:20am PST NEW
                                Re: "See, I'm really good a video games!" by FABIO 02/25/2003, 11:55am PST NEW
                                    Hey, that's my line. by Fussbett 02/25/2003, 4:06pm PST NEW
                                        Video Games, Chess, and Laziness. by mrs. johnson 02/25/2003, 4:40pm PST NEW
                                            Yes, exactly. by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 7:29pm PST NEW
                                                Re: Yes, exactly. by mark 02/25/2003, 8:36pm PST NEW
                                                    This argument is pretty much over by now, right? by Bodybag 02/25/2003, 9:08pm PST NEW
                                                    There isn't one strategy for chess that will always win NT by Senor Barborito 02/25/2003, 11:49pm PST NEW
                                        that's guy's a fucking crackpot by FABIO 02/25/2003, 6:35pm PST NEW
                                            I don't know about suspense games, but much of his strategy talk is dead on-nt- by mark 02/25/2003, 6:51pm PST NEW
                                            it's all DePalma's fault by jeep 02/25/2003, 7:45pm PST NEW
                                                Re: it's all DePalma's fault by FABIO 02/25/2003, 10:44pm PST NEW
                                    Re: "See, I'm really good a video games!" by TehFieryBalrog 07/05/2007, 9:43pm PDT NEW
                                        This guy is new and already knows SB was crazy and Zseni is bad at everything by Flavilio 07/06/2007, 12:10am PDT NEW
                                            Battlenet screenname is Balrog200 or soapie on USEast, channel scu NT by TehFieryBalrog 07/07/2007, 12:32am PDT NEW
                                                alternatively aim screenname is balrog36 NT by TehFieryBalrog 07/07/2007, 12:47am PDT NEW
                                                    ^^^ This guy loves balrogs. NT by Any and all balrogs. 07/07/2007, 2:57am PDT NEW
                        Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Monty Cantsin 02/25/2003, 5:03pm PST NEW
                            You CAN turtle in RA2+YR by Bodybag 02/25/2003, 6:57pm PST NEW
                                Re: You CAN turtle in RA2+YR by jeep 02/25/2003, 7:51pm PST NEW
                                    Re: You CAN turtle in RA2+YR by Bodybag 02/25/2003, 8:17pm PST NEW
                            Re: Did you even read the initial post? by Ray, of Light 02/25/2003, 8:00pm PST NEW
                        StarScripts are tomorrow's Blueprints by Fussbett 10/30/2006, 11:30pm PST NEW
 
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