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by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST |
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Zseni wrote:
Okay, so given all this: the war on Iraq is bad economic policy in that it furthers a inefficient status quo - the oil-based energy economy - at the expense of good economic policy which would also, in this case, happen to save lives: developing alternative energy sources and reducing total energy usage. Inefficient compared to what? Something impossible, but "morally extremely attractive?" The fact is that oil is the best fuel we've got right now, warts and all. Also, as is becoming something of a theme today, developing competitive alternative energy sources, and reducing energy usage without reducing productivity (that's what you meant, right?), are very easy to do when your role in the process is telling other people to do them. If it's so easy, why don't you fucking do it? If you do, it'll make you a mint...
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
This is not a war which can truly be fought over economic benefit. It is one fought for economic convenience. This is a meaningless statement.
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
Iraq's oil is some of the lightest and sweetest in the world - that is, it's naturally very pure and a very high percentage of it is useable. This is just your style. Pick up a single factoid, and run it into the ground. Why don't you give us your discourse on the kryptonitology of Baathism vs. Islamism, Sunni vs. Shia?
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
In a US-controlled Iraq the new regime would of course obey OPEC quotas and pricing, which means that those who will benefit most from the stability of the supply are the oil companies and especially the American and American-ally owned ones which get to set up camp in the glass parking lot we're going to leave behind. They get to work with an oil which is easy and relatively inexpensive to process and sell it at the going rate - making $5, $10 on the barrel over what dirty-oil producers like Russia get. (And Russia, bless its heart, wants to slash oil prices which makes OPEC very nervous, but I digress.) OK, I'm not an expert, but this is very different from the picture I've gotten. For one thing, it is NOT a forgone conclusion that post-Hussein Iraq will be a part of OPEC. In fact, the use Iraq to destabilize the Saudis strategy depends on that NOT happening. Also, Iraq's existing oil contracts are mostly with French and Russian companies. Furthermore, the wells will remain the property of the national government of Iraq, and that's where most of the oil money will wind up. Finally, my understanding was that Russia's interest in the whole thing was the opposite: the Russian economy does not have a whole lot of wiggle room, and a substantial amount of their cash flow comes from oil exports, so their fear, as I understand it, is that a non-OPEC Iraq would lead to a drop in oil prices that would hurt them badly (also US oil companies, to a lesser extent).
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
The war on Iraq is not just economic convenience, it's a witch hunt, a distraction from the rising danger that the Enron scandal briefly uncovered. To me it smacks of our communism domino policy, I'm sorry, are you saying that the cold war was a PR stunt? Communism was real, and it killed a lot of people. We were right to oppose it (not just "not wrong"), and we could have lost.
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
or that time we were arming Iraq in order to contain Iran - and remember all the arming of Iran we did? In the broader contemporary cotexts, these actions make sense, or are at least defensible. Also, it should be noted that we never arm anyone well enough to beat US.
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
out the reactionary fundamentalist government we installed in Afghanistan to beat the commies? (They didn't tell us they were fundies at the time!) Yeah, that didn't work out so good. This sounds to me like a reference to an oft-repeated fallacy: that we armed the Taliban (created them, in the Shelley translation) to defeat the Soviets. In fact, the people who became the Taliban were a small part of a broad coalition of Afghans who defended their country against the invaders. The people referred to as the Northern Alliance during the conflict in 2001 constituted the majority of the Afghan resistance at the time, and we armed them too (and mostly). The Taliban really emerged AFTER we had STOPPED funding the Afghans, because they'd beaten the Soviets. The Taliban were primarily a creation of Pakistan.
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
Both you and Dio have this theory of Darwinist civilizational development, and to some extent history bears you out - and of course modern history certainly does. I don't really. I don't think that our way MUST triumph because it's the best. I do think it's the best that people have managed to come up with so far, but I don't think human affairs are as neat and rational as they happen as they might seem to be from the perspective of the future. I think that our system managed to survive, in spite of the fact that it has numerous vulnerabilities in warfare compared to other systems that are worse overall. Right now, Athens is beating Sparta, but I'm not convinced that that's inevitable. Civilization will fall to the barbarians if it becomes too deeply infected with decadent nihilism. People who love their own capacity for facile smugness, or for self-righteousness born of ill-considered idealism, more than the real virtues of their own society-- people so focused on the warts of their own system that they ignore the reeking horror of their enemies'-- are al Quaeda's last, best hope. |
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I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 6:46am PST 
Scott Ritter by Colonel K 01/19/2003, 8:16am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 9:29am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 3:42am PST 
North Korea by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:47am PST 
Re: North Korea by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 12:53am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:00pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Cantor 01/19/2003, 12:33pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 2:03pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Fight 01/19/2003, 4:06pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by CrackerBarrel 01/19/2003, 4:37pm PST 
Dear Assumptive Idiot by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST 
So by "I feel like starting a fight" You meant "Suck my cock or you're an idiot" by Fight 01/19/2003, 6:34pm PST 
Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- NT by motherhead 01/19/2003, 7:54pm PST 
Yeah, good call, M-head by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 1:46pm PST 
Re: Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 01/21/2003, 12:53pm PST 
More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 10:26pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by the janitor 01/21/2003, 11:24pm PST 
You owe me a beer, I just spit this one up. by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 11:36pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by juniorallen 01/22/2003, 9:41am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/22/2003, 11:50am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/23/2003, 9:10pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/24/2003, 4:47am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/24/2003, 11:38am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 7:17pm PST 
Dear Fight-Who-Is-Not-the-janitor by Bill Dungsroman 01/25/2003, 8:41pm PST 
responce is English... by arbit 01/26/2003, 1:11am PST 
Clarification for your ass by Senor Barborito 01/25/2003, 10:46pm PST 
some help by arbit 01/26/2003, 12:37am PST 
Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 3:30am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by Motherhead 01/26/2003, 3:56am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 5:44am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by FABIO 02/01/2003, 6:33am PST 
Re: some help by Senor Barborito 01/26/2003, 10:58am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Ray, of Light 01/24/2003, 8:50pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 9:03pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Gotta be KD 01/27/2003, 5:29pm PST 
No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 8:03pm PST 
Here is something. by conflictNo 01/19/2003, 9:35pm PST 
North Korea is the license-to-print-money threat of the century. by Fucking Faggot 01/19/2003, 11:36pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 12:08am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:04am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by IMDBMAN 01/20/2003, 10:03pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/20/2003, 11:10pm PST 
All movies with Powers Boothe have merit. by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 7:12am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:31am PST 
completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:57am PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 9:09am PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 12:28pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 3:18pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 3:50pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:04am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 5:33am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 6:44am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 10:13pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:30am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/21/2003, 11:10pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:16am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Bodybag 01/23/2003, 4:19am PST 
Also good for body count: a Dwayne Hicks-like "FORGET HIM, HE'S GONE" (nt) by creativepig 01/23/2003, 7:42am PST 
zero-sum by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 12:28am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:20pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:24pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:54am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:23am PST 
I was mistaken, thank you -nt- by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:18am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:24pm PST 
Also by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:52pm PST 
Re: Also by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:42am PST 
Re: Also by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:45pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Gotta Be KD 01/21/2003, 3:55am PST 
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:44pm PST 
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Old Post Fighter 06/22/2021, 4:23pm PDT 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST 
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:57pm PST 
Link by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:35pm PST 
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 6:38pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Ray, of Light 01/19/2003, 5:19pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:46pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 6:30pm PST 
Live from Ethniclistan by World Affairs Correspondent Zseni 01/19/2003, 6:08pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/19/2003, 7:35pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Kree 01/20/2003, 10:00am PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 10:19am PST 
Here's my chance to be the Harriet Tubbman of nerds (nt) NT by creativepig 01/20/2003, 3:54pm PST 
OK so you marry veronica and then divorce and she marries me -NT- by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:03pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 6:04pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 6:15pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 6:46pm PST 
War or Pandemic? Can't it be both? n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 7:09pm PST 
Not when you are dividing the aftermath amonst the illuminati by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 5:13am PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:16pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST 
PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by Zseni 01/20/2003, 10:35am PST 
I'll wait -nt- by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 1:01pm PST 
Re: PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by laudablepuss 01/20/2003, 4:09pm PST 
Fuck that stupid cunt. The next one will stay the fuck out of the street. by Bodybag 01/20/2003, 8:09pm PST 
Part Two by Zseni 01/20/2003, 7:50pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 9:46pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST 
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 6:03pm PST 
How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST 
A: at least a few, but fewer than you think by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 9:26pm PST 
Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Zseni 01/22/2003, 11:08pm PST 
I feel like ending a fight by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:40pm PST 
Re: Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 11:13pm PST 
Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by creativepig 01/23/2003, 8:06am PST 
Re: Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:59pm PST 
I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Fussbett 01/23/2003, 10:34pm PST 
Re: I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Kimberly Scott 01/12/2022, 12:46am PST 
DUDE SIGN ME UP FOR SOME OF THAT! NT by Leisuretown 01/14/2022, 4:54am PST 
KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 2:13am PST 
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by The regretful proxy 01/24/2003, 2:55am PST 
Motherfuck by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 3:09am PST 
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Stacy Collins 11/04/2021, 8:34am PDT 
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:32pm PST 
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by E. L. Koba 01/31/2003, 2:48am PST 
Re: Part Two by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 7:04pm PST 
what I don't like about your plan by spelling fag 01/21/2003, 10:48pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 9:15pm PST 
Bob McNamara Lives! by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 5:05pm PST 
Re: Bob McNamara Lives! by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:39pm PST 
Um... by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 7:48pm PST 
Re: Um... by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 8:17pm PST 
Well, then I'll spell it out for you by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 8:46pm PST 
Re: Well, then I'll spell it out for you by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 10:56pm PST 
Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 12:47am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Lufteufel 01/21/2003, 1:34am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 2:44am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 5:11pm PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 10:53am PST 
Sounds GREAT!! by ToutSuite 01/22/2003, 2:14am PST 
Re: Sounds GREAT!! by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 10:29am PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:14pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by conflictNo 01/20/2003, 10:12pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 1:23am PST 
But Kissinger wears glasses! You can't hate a guy with glasses. n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/21/2003, 1:52am PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:50pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 8:11pm PST 
Nice thread, BTW(NT) by Bodybag 01/22/2003, 12:13am PST 
My post is obviously the best, of course. (nt) by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 4:51am PST 
Many legends in this thread. NT by Horus Truthteller 01/12/2022, 11:52am PST 
Sadly they all promised not to help against Thanos so . . . NT by laudablepuss 01/12/2022, 3:19pm PST 
XYBERHUGE -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 01/31/2003, 1:24am PST 
WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Jhoh Creexul SUPER GAYAN 01/31/2003, 7:45pm PST 
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