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by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST |
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I'm going to restate my main points so that your reply may better eviscerate them:
I liked my phrasing better, since it led itself to beautiful one-word counterstrikes, but you're worth that extra mile.
Wars are fought for economic reasons.
Wars are won on the strength of economic systems which are, in turn, encodings of our values and beliefs.
"War" has evolved into a smooth continuum from protectionism to genocide. Any point along this continuum can inflict economic damage on the enemy and thus compel him to further our goals.
Okay, so given all this: the war on Iraq is bad economic policy in that it furthers a inefficient status quo - the oil-based energy economy - at the expense of good economic policy which would also, in this case, happen to save lives: developing alternative energy sources and reducing total energy usage.
This is not a war which can truly be fought over economic benefit. It is one fought for economic convenience.
As I mentioned earlier, it's up to each individual to decide how valid this is as a motivation. For most of us: errrrr I guess it's okay just don't tell us about it.
Capitalism is so superior, economically, that exclusion from global capitalist markets means relative poverty and weakness. We compete more efficiently for resources, and these days, resources are codified in dollars, whose efficient acquisition requires international trade. We no longer need to go to war over anything so crass as a border.
Iraq has been excluded from international trade; we have exercised our right to refuse association with them.
Iraq is in poverty (see point 4) and has decided to arm itself with offensive weapons.
We, as a nation, have no moral imperative to permit that.
Knowing that Iraq's situation can only become more desperate, our correct move is to shut down their offensive capability earlier than later.
If we prevent their development of offense, it's back to strangulation through sanctions. Sooner or later, they'll cave and we buy them up.
Where we differ is not foreign policy, it's domestic policy and spin. (My foreign policy dream for Iraq is so deliciously hippy, though, maybe I'll stick it in at the bottom as an aside.) To get back to your points - that's all fine and good, but how many people benefitting from the war are miniature Iraqs?
Some figures: we provide $17 billion dollars or so annually to Israel in foreign aid, money which has more or less no strings attached. BTW the Israel lobby is the best funded in the country right now. The Israelis take the great bulk of that cash, American taxpayer dollars every one, and buy planes and missiles etc. with them. At, you know, retail. The end result: Israel is armed and $17 billion is in the pocket of Lockheed Martin. Israel has laundered money into Lockheed Martin's pocket. Many would disagree with that terminology, but it's okay to disagree, and please - I speak as an frothing Zionist.
Iraq's oil is some of the lightest and sweetest in the world - that is, it's naturally very pure and a very high percentage of it is useable. In a US-controlled Iraq the new regime would of course obey OPEC quotas and pricing, which means that those who will benefit most from the stability of the supply are the oil companies and especially the American and American-ally owned ones which get to set up camp in the glass parking lot we're going to leave behind. They get to work with an oil which is easy and relatively inexpensive to process and sell it at the going rate - making $5, $10 on the barrel over what dirty-oil producers like Russia get. (And Russia, bless its heart, wants to slash oil prices which makes OPEC very nervous, but I digress.)
By stuff like this I mean to demonstrate that this war, fought for economic convenience, is also being fought especially for the economic convenience of men who are already very rich and approach the size of nation-states in their wealth and economic power. If you believe your theory of economic war, then what do you make of Exxon-Mobil's more or less terrorist activities in Indonesia? What do you say to overturned tankers? What do you do with car companies, who are fighting tooth and nail to keep SUV's from gas mileage regulations, and then turn around and lay off 15,000 people? The airplane and weapons companies who do the same?
To be sure, the suffering of the laid-off American autoworker can't compare with the suffering of the Saddam-ruled Iraqi, but what about the killed-and-raped proposed by Get Your War On? In short: why would you tolerate the armament and militarization of corporations, why would you stand for their abuses of American citizens, if you will not tolerate the arming and militarization of Iraq and the abuse of the Iraqis?
Of course I write this from a comfortable room.
The war on Iraq is not just economic convenience, it's a witch hunt, a distraction from the rising danger that the Enron scandal briefly uncovered. To me it smacks of our communism domino policy, or that time we were arming Iraq in order to contain Iran - and remember all the arming of Iran we did? Also about the reactionary fundamentalist government we installed in Afghanistan to beat the commies? (They didn't tell us they were fundies at the time!) Yeah, that didn't work out so good. But for now I will stop just short of saying that the war is wrong. I can't say it's wrong without becoming an open hypocrite. So let's move on.
In doing so, our way of life "conquers" -- "naturally" -- by virtue of economic superiority and, by extension, moral superiority.
Both you and Dio have this theory of Darwinist civilizational development, and to some extent history bears you out - and of course modern history certainly does. But moral superiority? Let's talk about my Iraqi dream.
My Iraqi dream is that the US sends in all manner of transports and rescues the Iraqis from Iraq. You see, this is the other half of the exchange rate utilitarian quandry. Once rescued they are brought here, processed and given American IDs and schooled in our American Way Of Life - manifest destiny ho! - and screened so that most of the potential terrorists are detained further. The non-terrorists are worked into American society - perhaps we'll ship a few to our neighbors in the North or what have you, but if we are really going to war to help the Iraqi people then we were already prepared to make sacrifices. Saddam can remain in Baghdad surrounded by his Elite Republican Guard, ruler of a ghost nation. If UN inspectors can find all the weapons, how much more easily the people who can't be buried and need food? And the neighbors of Saddam, who have the most pressing interest in his good behavior - if they want to secure his territory, they can do so themselves, God knows we've armed them to the teeth.
What a chic coup! What a glorious pipe dream! Thank you, I do like it very much myself. My god you can't beat it for moral superiority, when you're talking about the kinds of morals people espouse.
I wonder always how much more difficult and expensive it would be than war. I do know one thing: it wouldn't benefit anybody with money. As for the logistics and what have you I'm sure it would be expensive and unwiedly; to be sure we have nothing built for it. |
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I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 6:46am PST 
Scott Ritter by Colonel K 01/19/2003, 8:16am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 9:29am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 3:42am PST
North Korea by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:47am PST
Re: North Korea by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 12:53am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:00pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Cantor 01/19/2003, 12:33pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 2:03pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Fight 01/19/2003, 4:06pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by CrackerBarrel 01/19/2003, 4:37pm PST
Dear Assumptive Idiot by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST
So by "I feel like starting a fight" You meant "Suck my cock or you're an idiot" by Fight 01/19/2003, 6:34pm PST
Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- NT by motherhead 01/19/2003, 7:54pm PST
Yeah, good call, M-head by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 1:46pm PST
Re: Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 01/21/2003, 12:53pm PST
More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 10:26pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by the janitor 01/21/2003, 11:24pm PST
You owe me a beer, I just spit this one up. by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 11:36pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by juniorallen 01/22/2003, 9:41am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/22/2003, 11:50am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/23/2003, 9:10pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/24/2003, 4:47am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/24/2003, 11:38am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 7:17pm PST
Dear Fight-Who-Is-Not-the-janitor by Bill Dungsroman 01/25/2003, 8:41pm PST
responce is English... by arbit 01/26/2003, 1:11am PST
Clarification for your ass by Senor Barborito 01/25/2003, 10:46pm PST
some help by arbit 01/26/2003, 12:37am PST
Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 3:30am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by Motherhead 01/26/2003, 3:56am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 5:44am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by FABIO 02/01/2003, 6:33am PST
Re: some help by Senor Barborito 01/26/2003, 10:58am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Ray, of Light 01/24/2003, 8:50pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 9:03pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Gotta be KD 01/27/2003, 5:29pm PST
No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 8:03pm PST
Here is something. by conflictNo 01/19/2003, 9:35pm PST
North Korea is the license-to-print-money threat of the century. by Fucking Faggot 01/19/2003, 11:36pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 12:08am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:04am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by IMDBMAN 01/20/2003, 10:03pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/20/2003, 11:10pm PST
All movies with Powers Boothe have merit. by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 7:12am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:31am PST
completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:57am PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 9:09am PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 12:28pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 3:18pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 3:50pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:04am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 5:33am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 6:44am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 10:13pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:30am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/21/2003, 11:10pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:16am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Bodybag 01/23/2003, 4:19am PST
Also good for body count: a Dwayne Hicks-like "FORGET HIM, HE'S GONE" (nt) by creativepig 01/23/2003, 7:42am PST
zero-sum by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 12:28am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:20pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:24pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:54am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:23am PST
I was mistaken, thank you -nt- by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:18am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:24pm PST
Also by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:52pm PST
Re: Also by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:42am PST
Re: Also by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:45pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Gotta Be KD 01/21/2003, 3:55am PST
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:44pm PST
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Old Post Fighter 06/22/2021, 4:23pm PDT
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:57pm PST
Link by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:35pm PST
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 6:38pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Ray, of Light 01/19/2003, 5:19pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:46pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 6:30pm PST
Live from Ethniclistan by World Affairs Correspondent Zseni 01/19/2003, 6:08pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/19/2003, 7:35pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Kree 01/20/2003, 10:00am PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 10:19am PST
Here's my chance to be the Harriet Tubbman of nerds (nt) NT by creativepig 01/20/2003, 3:54pm PST
OK so you marry veronica and then divorce and she marries me -NT- by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:03pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 6:04pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 6:15pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 6:46pm PST
War or Pandemic? Can't it be both? n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 7:09pm PST
Not when you are dividing the aftermath amonst the illuminati by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 5:13am PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:16pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST
PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by Zseni 01/20/2003, 10:35am PST
I'll wait -nt- by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 1:01pm PST
Re: PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by laudablepuss 01/20/2003, 4:09pm PST
Fuck that stupid cunt. The next one will stay the fuck out of the street. by Bodybag 01/20/2003, 8:09pm PST
Part Two by Zseni 01/20/2003, 7:50pm PST
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 9:46pm PST
Re: Part Two by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 6:03pm PST
How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST
A: at least a few, but fewer than you think by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 9:26pm PST
Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Zseni 01/22/2003, 11:08pm PST
I feel like ending a fight by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:40pm PST
Re: Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 11:13pm PST
Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by creativepig 01/23/2003, 8:06am PST
Re: Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:59pm PST
I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Fussbett 01/23/2003, 10:34pm PST
Re: I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Kimberly Scott 01/12/2022, 12:46am PST
DUDE SIGN ME UP FOR SOME OF THAT! NT by Leisuretown 01/14/2022, 4:54am PST
KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 2:13am PST
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by The regretful proxy 01/24/2003, 2:55am PST
Motherfuck by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 3:09am PST
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Stacy Collins 11/04/2021, 8:34am PDT
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:32pm PST
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by E. L. Koba 01/31/2003, 2:48am PST
Re: Part Two by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 7:04pm PST
what I don't like about your plan by spelling fag 01/21/2003, 10:48pm PST
Re: Part Two by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 9:15pm PST
Bob McNamara Lives! by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 5:05pm PST
Re: Bob McNamara Lives! by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:39pm PST
Um... by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 7:48pm PST
Re: Um... by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 8:17pm PST
Well, then I'll spell it out for you by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 8:46pm PST
Re: Well, then I'll spell it out for you by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 10:56pm PST
Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 12:47am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Lufteufel 01/21/2003, 1:34am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 2:44am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 5:11pm PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 10:53am PST
Sounds GREAT!! by ToutSuite 01/22/2003, 2:14am PST
Re: Sounds GREAT!! by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 10:29am PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:14pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by conflictNo 01/20/2003, 10:12pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 1:23am PST
But Kissinger wears glasses! You can't hate a guy with glasses. n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/21/2003, 1:52am PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:50pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 8:11pm PST
Nice thread, BTW(NT) by Bodybag 01/22/2003, 12:13am PST
My post is obviously the best, of course. (nt) by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 4:51am PST
Many legends in this thread. NT by Horus Truthteller 01/12/2022, 11:52am PST
Sadly they all promised not to help against Thanos so . . . NT by laudablepuss 01/12/2022, 3:19pm PST
XYBERHUGE -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 01/31/2003, 1:24am PST
WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Jhoh Creexul SUPER GAYAN 01/31/2003, 7:45pm PST
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