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Motherfucking News
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by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST |
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Senor Barborito wrote:
Saddam doesn't pose a threat to anybody but Israel and his own people, and Bush shouting about 'weapons of mass destruction' doesn't change the fact that Saddam can't hit any other non-Muslim nation even if our worst fears are true.
Not right now, but give him enough time and that will change. 1.5 million barrels a day of "oil for food" is enough for a decent R&D budget if you're willing to skip the food part and starve the populace (remember all those babies in the Albright quote?). How many years would it take to build a medium range weapon that could threaten Europe? an ICBM? Certainly not forever.
And what exactly is this: all he can hit is Israel business? All NK can do is kill some slopes, but apparently we care about that for some reason.
Of course, a nuclear Iraq would be worse than NK. NK can't get too out of hand, because the PRC next door can and will slap them down hard. There is no major power in the ME to check Iraq. With nukes, Iraq would, in fact, become a regional near-equivalent of the PRC, thereby gaining leverage over most of the proven oil reserves in the world. OPEC is a drag when it's just representing Saudi self-interest, but if it were being run with malicious intent, it could be truly nasty. Arguably nuclear coercion (not ever requiring the USE of a nuke) could put this EVEN MORE dangerous weapon in Hussein (jr? III?)'s hands. I say it's more dangerous because while millions could starve in an oil induced 2nd great depression, it wouldn't cross the threshold of nuking somebody which would bring instantaneous destruction down on Iraq.
That's what all the jokers yammering about "blood for oil" don't get. For most of us, oil = food. I am not a farmer. I get my food from the supermarket. In back of the supermarket, sometimes I see big trucks. I think they have something to do with all the food on the shelves. I know they run on diesel. If the price for diesel spikes, the supermarket's going to pass that spike on to me. No blood for food? Fuck that.
Senor Barborito wrote:
The man (and his even more vicious - if reports are true - sons) needs to be shot and done in - I agree with Bush that far down the line. The Iraqi people are suffering horribly because of his government and are afraid to speak out in even the slightest capacity. I know I have a reputation for being viciously anti-human, but for some reason I found this piece by a reporter who just left Iraq oddly heart-wrenching. Maybe it's because I'm such a free-speech absolutist, or maybe it's because I hate the very concept of wealth-beyond-moderate-comfort, but it gave a view of Iraq I needed to read.
So, yes, I'm for regime change fully. The sooner the better. Assassination? A-OK, as far as I'm concerned. Call in the Mossad for this one if you must. Popular movement? Rock on. Whatever it takes.
We've been trying all those angles for 12 years, and failing miserably. He is a ruthless, tricky motherfucker. He was afraid of being assassinated even before we started thinking about it (because that's how he got to power: he knows how big the payoff is), and he has gotten very good at avoiding assassination. After 12 years of failure, I'm prepared to give up. Furthermore, by fighting a secret, low intensity war against him, we're turning Sun Tzu on his head. We're fighting him where he is strong (in a country he ABSOLUTELY controls) and we are weak (with a handfull of spooks, instead of a half dozen carrier battle groups). We've got official armed services out the ass, ours beat his handily the last time out, and instead of using them, we're going to play spy games with the master of assassins? Why?
Senor Barborito wrote:
]Outright war? I'm certainly not for tearing the country to shit again, and there's every indication that the close-quarters nature of this next time would be far worse for both the residents and for us. We fucking *WON* in Afghanistan, and the reason was because we came as liberators, not an occupation force intent on tearing the natives lives from shit into some new anti-futuristic hyper-shit.
I really don't think this is going to be Stalingrad. Obviously nobody can know what will happen before hand, but I just don't think the Iraqi grunt is going to be motivated enough for that. I'm sure that many of the guys who fought at Stalingrad feared/hated Stalin, but they knew that whatever they'd get from a victorious Hitler would be much worse, so they were highly motivated. Given the number of Iraqis we took captive last time, everybody in that army must know at this point that when you surrender to the Americans, nothing really bad happens to you. I'm sure some of the Special Republican Guard (you know, the force he put together to protect him from a potential coup by the Republican Guard) will be highly motivated, and try to resist in the cities, but they will have zero supply, and zero CCC, so I think they can be dealt with.
Senor Barborito wrote:
They lost at least a 9/11's worth of completely uninvolved non-combatants,
This is not true. I linked you the links back on planet hate. Herrold double counted people all over the place.
Senor Barborito wrote:
but against the background noise of living in that region it was a lot less than anybody could have hoped for.
True enough, sadly.
Senor Barborito wrote:
There is no way to invade Iraq with 200,000 US soldiers and repeat this series of events. If we want to stifle a hotbed for terrorist recruitment standing ready to be made, we need to topple the regime without the populace seeing nothing but American soldiers tearing their homes and families to pieces. Because that's a recipe for millions of fresh-faced suicide bombers.
I don't follow the logic there. It seems to me that terrorism is born of hatred of the US and Israel, hatred that is sponsored by repressive, authoritarian regimes like Iraq's to give the justly angry (at Saddam, NOT us) populace a vent for their frustrations. Assassination/successful coup leads, it seems to me, inexorably, to the "Saddam-lite" scenario, where one of his generals takes over, and not much else changes. Hopefully, he'll quit the WMD programs (and if he doesn't, will we go in?), but he's likely to keep beating the people down, and keep trying to redirect their rage at us. It seems to me that if you care about the people of Iraq, OR if you worry about the conditions that spawn terrorists, then war is actually the best of bad options. Of course, it should be noted that bombs, not bombers are the limiting reagent in suicide attacks. Which means that going to war to create another Saudi Arabia is a very bad idea. It should also be noted that it sounds to me like Powell and the "moderate" wing of the administration are pushing for this outcome, even after a war. It's the frothing at the mouth "hawks" who talk about trying to establish a representative government in Iraq. One of many through-the-looking-glass aspects of this business.
A tangent:
Your comment about suicide bombers suggests you hold what I view to be a common misconception about the roots of terrorism. Namely, that it is the fruit of desperation. This seems reasonable on it's face-- after all, suicide would seem to be the act of a desperate person. But poverty and desperation are abundant in the world, while terrorism seems to be much more focused. It seems to me that the deadly combination that plagues the arab world (and us, through them), is political and social repression combined not with poverty and desperation, but relative comfort. People who are only alive because of years of bitter struggle against want are unlikely to throw that achievement away in a hopeless cause (and that, plainly, is what the Islamists' war against us is). People, on the other hand, who take the essentials of life for granted (thanks to oil-funded state welfare systems, for example), but who are held back from personal, professional or political achievement by their societies, are going to have a lot of pent-up frustrations; frustrations they'll be more likely to take out suicidally acting out some grotesque fantasy (this is not a military campaign they're waging against us, it's a show; a show they're putting on for God) than people who've invested in their own survival, or people who are allowed to fuck who they like, do business how they like, and seek political office if they like. This, I think, is why most of the hijackers were Saudis. AND why Marshall planning Iraq (risky as it is) makes more sense to me than not.
Senor Barborito wrote:
Regime change? Yes. War? No.
What if can only get the first with the second? IF that's true (and it seems to me it is), then I think you're forced to conclude that war now is better than war later, simply because later he might have theater nukes.
Senor Barborito wrote:
Defense contracts? No.
I don't know what this refers to.
I do know that I'll be very interested in what the Iraqi books reveal about the roots of Franco-German "pacifism." (Translation: I suspect the Euros have been selling him shit they weren't supposed to under the sanctions program, and their attempts to shank us at the UN have been both a quid pro quo AND an attempt to cover their own asses.)
Senor Barborito wrote:
Oil booty? No. That's my vote, at least.
On the subject of oil, I should point out that nobody is suggesting we take it from them. We'll BUY it from them at the going rate. And they'll use the profits therefrom to rebuild their country. Iraqis could get rich off us, if things go right, just like the Krauts and the Japs. |
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I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 6:46am PST 
Scott Ritter by Colonel K 01/19/2003, 8:16am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 9:29am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 3:42am PST
North Korea by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:47am PST
Re: North Korea by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 12:53am PST
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:00pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Cantor 01/19/2003, 12:33pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 2:03pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Fight 01/19/2003, 4:06pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by CrackerBarrel 01/19/2003, 4:37pm PST
Dear Assumptive Idiot by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST
So by "I feel like starting a fight" You meant "Suck my cock or you're an idiot" by Fight 01/19/2003, 6:34pm PST
Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- NT by motherhead 01/19/2003, 7:54pm PST
Yeah, good call, M-head by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 1:46pm PST
Re: Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 01/21/2003, 12:53pm PST
More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 10:26pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by the janitor 01/21/2003, 11:24pm PST
You owe me a beer, I just spit this one up. by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 11:36pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by juniorallen 01/22/2003, 9:41am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/22/2003, 11:50am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/23/2003, 9:10pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/24/2003, 4:47am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/24/2003, 11:38am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 7:17pm PST
Dear Fight-Who-Is-Not-the-janitor by Bill Dungsroman 01/25/2003, 8:41pm PST
responce is English... by arbit 01/26/2003, 1:11am PST
Clarification for your ass by Senor Barborito 01/25/2003, 10:46pm PST
some help by arbit 01/26/2003, 12:37am PST
Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 3:30am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by Motherhead 01/26/2003, 3:56am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 5:44am PST
Re: Random BOLD text. by FABIO 02/01/2003, 6:33am PST
Re: some help by Senor Barborito 01/26/2003, 10:58am PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Ray, of Light 01/24/2003, 8:50pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 9:03pm PST
Re: More Janitor sightings by Gotta be KD 01/27/2003, 5:29pm PST
No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 8:03pm PST
Here is something. by conflictNo 01/19/2003, 9:35pm PST
North Korea is the license-to-print-money threat of the century. by Fucking Faggot 01/19/2003, 11:36pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 12:08am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:04am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by IMDBMAN 01/20/2003, 10:03pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/20/2003, 11:10pm PST
All movies with Powers Boothe have merit. by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 7:12am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:31am PST
completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:57am PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 9:09am PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 12:28pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 3:18pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 3:50pm PST
Re: completely unrelated shit by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:04am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 5:33am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 6:44am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 10:13pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:30am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/21/2003, 11:10pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:16am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Bodybag 01/23/2003, 4:19am PST
Also good for body count: a Dwayne Hicks-like "FORGET HIM, HE'S GONE" (nt) by creativepig 01/23/2003, 7:42am PST
zero-sum by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 12:28am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:20pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:24pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:54am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:23am PST
I was mistaken, thank you -nt- by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:18am PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:24pm PST
Also by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:52pm PST
Re: Also by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:42am PST
Re: Also by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:45pm PST
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Gotta Be KD 01/21/2003, 3:55am PST
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:44pm PST
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Old Post Fighter 06/22/2021, 4:23pm PDT
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:57pm PST
Link by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:35pm PST
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 6:38pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Ray, of Light 01/19/2003, 5:19pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:46pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 6:30pm PST
Live from Ethniclistan by World Affairs Correspondent Zseni 01/19/2003, 6:08pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/19/2003, 7:35pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Kree 01/20/2003, 10:00am PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 10:19am PST
Here's my chance to be the Harriet Tubbman of nerds (nt) NT by creativepig 01/20/2003, 3:54pm PST
OK so you marry veronica and then divorce and she marries me -NT- by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:03pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 6:04pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 6:15pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 6:46pm PST
War or Pandemic? Can't it be both? n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 7:09pm PST
Not when you are dividing the aftermath amonst the illuminati by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 5:13am PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:16pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST
PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by Zseni 01/20/2003, 10:35am PST
I'll wait -nt- by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 1:01pm PST
Re: PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by laudablepuss 01/20/2003, 4:09pm PST
Fuck that stupid cunt. The next one will stay the fuck out of the street. by Bodybag 01/20/2003, 8:09pm PST
Part Two by Zseni 01/20/2003, 7:50pm PST
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 9:46pm PST
Re: Part Two by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 6:03pm PST
How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST
A: at least a few, but fewer than you think by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 9:26pm PST
Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Zseni 01/22/2003, 11:08pm PST
I feel like ending a fight by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:40pm PST
Re: Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 11:13pm PST
Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by creativepig 01/23/2003, 8:06am PST
Re: Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:59pm PST
I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Fussbett 01/23/2003, 10:34pm PST
Re: I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Kimberly Scott 01/12/2022, 12:46am PST
DUDE SIGN ME UP FOR SOME OF THAT! NT by Leisuretown 01/14/2022, 4:54am PST
KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 2:13am PST
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by The regretful proxy 01/24/2003, 2:55am PST
Motherfuck by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 3:09am PST
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Stacy Collins 11/04/2021, 8:34am PDT
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:32pm PST
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by E. L. Koba 01/31/2003, 2:48am PST
Re: Part Two by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 7:04pm PST
what I don't like about your plan by spelling fag 01/21/2003, 10:48pm PST
Re: Part Two by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 9:15pm PST
Bob McNamara Lives! by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 5:05pm PST
Re: Bob McNamara Lives! by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:39pm PST
Um... by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 7:48pm PST
Re: Um... by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 8:17pm PST
Well, then I'll spell it out for you by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 8:46pm PST
Re: Well, then I'll spell it out for you by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 10:56pm PST
Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 12:47am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Lufteufel 01/21/2003, 1:34am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 2:44am PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 5:11pm PST
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 10:53am PST
Sounds GREAT!! by ToutSuite 01/22/2003, 2:14am PST
Re: Sounds GREAT!! by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 10:29am PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:14pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by conflictNo 01/20/2003, 10:12pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 1:23am PST
But Kissinger wears glasses! You can't hate a guy with glasses. n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/21/2003, 1:52am PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:50pm PST
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 8:11pm PST
Nice thread, BTW(NT) by Bodybag 01/22/2003, 12:13am PST
My post is obviously the best, of course. (nt) by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 4:51am PST
Many legends in this thread. NT by Horus Truthteller 01/12/2022, 11:52am PST
Sadly they all promised not to help against Thanos so . . . NT by laudablepuss 01/12/2022, 3:19pm PST
XYBERHUGE -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 01/31/2003, 1:24am PST
WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Jhoh Creexul SUPER GAYAN 01/31/2003, 7:45pm PST
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