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How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST
It's time to learn from them?

Okay, so given all this: the war on Iraq is bad economic policy in that it furthers a inefficient status quo - the oil-based energy economy - at the expense of good economic policy which would also, in this case, happen to save lives: developing alternative energy sources and reducing total energy usage.

This is not a war which can truly be fought over economic benefit. It is one fought for economic convenience.

As I mentioned earlier, it's up to each individual to decide how valid this is as a motivation. For most of us: errrrr I guess it's okay just don't tell us about it.



The problem is the gap there and here. Suppose efficient, cheap solar was developed today, and everyone decided they love nuclear power. You still need massive dollars to bootstrap our infrastructure out of oil-consumption mode. Spending those dollars while the world is full of openly-hostile nations would weaken our country, short-term, and subject it to more attack.

Long-term, I agree that your strategy is dominant. But there's a good reason why we built the interstates after WWII.


For how many decades have we had oil crises? What, after 1974 it wasn't clear? We didn't get the picture after the Iran-Iraq war? Don't you remember Saddam's brilliant air-power-based oil embargo? That was some slick shit! How about when Saddam fucking invaded Kuwait? Actually we did know because we weren't showing up in Kuwait until Iraqi forces started lining up along the border of Saudi Arabia. Because, you see, it's cool if Saddam gets 20% of the Middle East's oil reserves - but 40%? No way, that guy's nuts!

What the hell has been the cost of oil? The entire fleet of Middle East "issues" stem from exactly two things: Israel and oil, and we might have crammed Israel down their throats if it hadn't been for oil. An entire region of the world has had its cultures and lifestyles obliterated by our Western way of life and we console ourselves to our actions by never...quite....FINISHING the job. Look, I like our precious Western way of life as much as anyone but this business with the "we haven't learned about oil and the Arabs yet" is crazy stupid, Ray.

To be sure, the suffering of the laid-off American autoworker can't compare with the suffering of the Saddam-ruled Iraqi, but what about the killed-and-raped proposed by Get Your War On? In short: why would you tolerate the armament and militarization of corporations, why would you stand for their abuses of American citizens, if you will not tolerate the arming and militarization of Iraq and the abuse of the Iraqis?


I don't. I strongly oppose unchecked corporate power, because its logical conclusion is an end to our way of life. I read a comparison of coroporations to robots, human creations that have grown more powerful than humans by subverting the social contract, yet were never taught Asimov's three laws.

The imbalance of corporate power is one of many warts on our system, but I maintain we're better-off defeating one enemy now, and that enemy next.


We sided with the Soviets to beat the Nazis.
We sided with the fundamentalists to defeat the Soviets.
We sided with the corporations to beat the fundamentalists.

For serious - when the fuck do we learn, Ray? Who are we going to side with to beat the corporations? The corporations are going to balls deep into the military and government. Each iteration brings the battle closer to us and more difficult to fight - what happens next?

For one, the system still works well enough that enrichment of corporations means eventual enrichment of the people. For two, the cost of stunting their power will be high: see the point about solar.


When is your break point? When will the necessity for change supercede the comfort of the status quo? Because let's not kid: what we're talking about here is the extreme difficulty of changing our way of doing business. You can't possibly be arguing about the superiority of our way of life while acknowledging that the guys funding the whole affair are actually creepy war criminals - then you are only arguing for some subset of our way of life, one that we mean to change before importing it to Iraq. And all your theories aside, are the boys in Washington going to bother with any of it? To them it's a great opportunity to exploit the resources of an entire nation with a big thumbs up from the American people. Why on earth would they even need to hold back re: corporate power?

Will we do anything but say "stop, slow down, we'll cut back"?

I also think victory on that front will come sooner and cheaper than you imply. If push comes to shove, corporations cannot win a war against people. There's already lots of anti-corporate talk, and Microsoft/Enron/Worldcom demonstrate that people are willing to take mutual fund hits to pen the golems.

Their charters handicap them with transparent agendas and short-term vision. All it will take is one unpleasant demonstration of corporate power, one politician to sound the battle cry, and that "war" may be over almost before it's begun.


Now who is the impossible dreamer? And unpleasant demonstrations - maybe you should go watch "Roger and Me" which despite its extreme liberal bias is ample evidence of corporate viciousness. Or let's go to Indonesia, shall we? And tour an Exxon-Mobil facility.

You can't achieve that without crushing Iraq's resistance first, i.e., through war. The end result is what I've been saying is inevitable and right: the destruction of Iraq's "way of life", whatever that is, and replacement by our own. The upfront costs in dollars are higher; in lives, maybe lower. The profits are still there (locked up in the inherent value of natural resources) but deferred until Saddam is overrun by someone willing to sell.

Ray!


We already destroyed Iraq's way of life when we started setting up oil pumps. The battle is much older than the stuff you're talking about. As for the impossibility of a peaceful solution - Iraq's resistance? Where do you live that you didn't see all the documentaries over the Gulf War? The only resistance comes from the Elite Republican Guard, Saddam's personal favorites. The armed forces are counting on this, because we don't have the straight-up manpower to take Baghdad right now. We can take everything else. Why not take it?

It's futile to argue against the war, as the Bush adminstration has determined that there's going to be a war no matter what the fuck ever people say. But it is vitally important to keep our eyes open. There nothing really untrue about anything you have said, but - but -
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I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 6:46am PST NEW
    Scott Ritter by Colonel K 01/19/2003, 8:16am PST NEW
        Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 9:29am PST NEW
            Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST NEW
                Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 3:42am PST NEW
                    North Korea by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:47am PST NEW
                        Re: North Korea by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 12:53am PST NEW
                    Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:00pm PST NEW
    Re: I feel like starting a fight by Cantor 01/19/2003, 12:33pm PST NEW
        Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 2:03pm PST NEW
            Re: I feel like starting a fight by Fight 01/19/2003, 4:06pm PST NEW
                Re: I feel like starting a fight by CrackerBarrel 01/19/2003, 4:37pm PST NEW
                Dear Assumptive Idiot by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST NEW
                    So by "I feel like starting a fight" You meant "Suck my cock or you're an idiot" by Fight 01/19/2003, 6:34pm PST NEW
                        Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- NT by motherhead 01/19/2003, 7:54pm PST NEW
                            Yeah, good call, M-head by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 1:46pm PST NEW
                            Re: Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 01/21/2003, 12:53pm PST NEW
                                More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 10:26pm PST NEW
                                    Re: More Janitor sightings by the janitor 01/21/2003, 11:24pm PST NEW
                                        You owe me a beer, I just spit this one up. by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 11:36pm PST NEW
                                        Re: More Janitor sightings by juniorallen 01/22/2003, 9:41am PST NEW
                                        Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/22/2003, 11:50am PST NEW
                                            Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/23/2003, 9:10pm PST NEW
                                                Re: More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/24/2003, 4:47am PST NEW
                                                Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/24/2003, 11:38am PST NEW
                                                    Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 7:17pm PST NEW
                                                        Dear Fight-Who-Is-Not-the-janitor by Bill Dungsroman 01/25/2003, 8:41pm PST NEW
                                                            responce is English... by arbit 01/26/2003, 1:11am PST NEW
                                                        Clarification for your ass by Senor Barborito 01/25/2003, 10:46pm PST NEW
                                                        some help by arbit 01/26/2003, 12:37am PST NEW
                                                            Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 3:30am PST NEW
                                                                Re: Random BOLD text. by Motherhead 01/26/2003, 3:56am PST NEW
                                                                    Re: Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 5:44am PST NEW
                                                                    Re: Random BOLD text. by FABIO 02/01/2003, 6:33am PST NEW
                                                            Re: some help by Senor Barborito 01/26/2003, 10:58am PST NEW
                                                Re: More Janitor sightings by Ray, of Light 01/24/2003, 8:50pm PST NEW
                                                    Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 9:03pm PST NEW
                                                        Re: More Janitor sightings by Gotta be KD 01/27/2003, 5:29pm PST NEW
                        No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 8:03pm PST NEW
                            Here is something. by conflictNo 01/19/2003, 9:35pm PST NEW
                                North Korea is the license-to-print-money threat of the century. by Fucking Faggot 01/19/2003, 11:36pm PST NEW
                            Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 12:08am PST NEW
                                Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:04am PST NEW
                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by IMDBMAN 01/20/2003, 10:03pm PST NEW
                                        Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/20/2003, 11:10pm PST NEW
                                        All movies with Powers Boothe have merit. by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 7:12am PST NEW
                                Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:31am PST NEW
                                    completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:57am PST NEW
                                        Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 9:09am PST NEW
                                            Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 12:28pm PST NEW
                                                Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 3:18pm PST NEW
                                                    Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 3:50pm PST NEW
                                                    Re: completely unrelated shit by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:04am PST NEW
                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 5:33am PST NEW
                                        Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 6:44am PST NEW
                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 10:13pm PST NEW
                                        Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:30am PST NEW
                                            Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/21/2003, 11:10pm PST NEW
                                                Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:16am PST NEW
                                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Bodybag 01/23/2003, 4:19am PST NEW
                                                    Also good for body count: a Dwayne Hicks-like "FORGET HIM, HE'S GONE" (nt) by creativepig 01/23/2003, 7:42am PST NEW
                                            zero-sum by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 12:28am PST NEW
                                            Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:20pm PST NEW
                            Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:24pm PST NEW
                                Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:54am PST NEW
                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:23am PST NEW
                                        I was mistaken, thank you -nt- by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:18am PST NEW
                                    Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:24pm PST NEW
                            Also by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:52pm PST NEW
                                Re: Also by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:42am PST NEW
                                    Re: Also by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:45pm PST NEW
                            Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Gotta Be KD 01/21/2003, 3:55am PST NEW
                    Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:44pm PST NEW
                    Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Old Post Fighter 06/22/2021, 4:23pm PDT NEW
                Re: I feel like starting a fight by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST NEW
                    Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:57pm PST NEW
                        Link by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:35pm PST NEW
                        Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 6:38pm PST NEW
            Re: I feel like starting a fight by Ray, of Light 01/19/2003, 5:19pm PST NEW
                Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:46pm PST NEW
                    Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 6:30pm PST NEW
                Live from Ethniclistan by World Affairs Correspondent Zseni 01/19/2003, 6:08pm PST NEW
                    Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/19/2003, 7:35pm PST NEW
                        Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Kree 01/20/2003, 10:00am PST NEW
                            Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 10:19am PST NEW
                                Here's my chance to be the Harriet Tubbman of nerds (nt) NT by creativepig 01/20/2003, 3:54pm PST NEW
                                    OK so you marry veronica and then divorce and she marries me -NT- by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:03pm PST NEW
                                Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 6:04pm PST NEW
                                    Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 6:15pm PST NEW
                                        Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 6:46pm PST NEW
                                            War or Pandemic? Can't it be both? n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 7:09pm PST NEW
                                                Not when you are dividing the aftermath amonst the illuminati by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 5:13am PST NEW
                                        Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:16pm PST NEW
                    Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST NEW
                        PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by Zseni 01/20/2003, 10:35am PST NEW
                            I'll wait -nt- by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 1:01pm PST NEW
                            Re: PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by laudablepuss 01/20/2003, 4:09pm PST NEW
                                Fuck that stupid cunt. The next one will stay the fuck out of the street. by Bodybag 01/20/2003, 8:09pm PST NEW
                        Part Two by Zseni 01/20/2003, 7:50pm PST NEW
                            Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 9:46pm PST NEW
                                Re: Part Two by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST NEW
                                    Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 6:03pm PST NEW
                                        How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST NEW
                                            A: at least a few, but fewer than you think by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 9:26pm PST NEW
                                                Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Zseni 01/22/2003, 11:08pm PST NEW
                                                    I feel like ending a fight by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:40pm PST NEW
                                                    Re: Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 11:13pm PST NEW
                                                Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by creativepig 01/23/2003, 8:06am PST NEW
                                                    Re: Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:59pm PST NEW
                                                        I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Fussbett 01/23/2003, 10:34pm PST NEW
                                                            Re: I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Kimberly Scott 01/12/2022, 12:46am PST NEW
                                                                DUDE SIGN ME UP FOR SOME OF THAT! NT by Leisuretown 01/14/2022, 4:54am PST NEW
                                                        KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 2:13am PST NEW
                                                            Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by The regretful proxy 01/24/2003, 2:55am PST NEW
                                                                Motherfuck by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 3:09am PST NEW
                                                            Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Stacy Collins 11/04/2021, 8:34am PDT NEW
                                            Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:32pm PST NEW
                                                Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by E. L. Koba 01/31/2003, 2:48am PST NEW
                                    Re: Part Two by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 7:04pm PST NEW
                                    what I don't like about your plan by spelling fag 01/21/2003, 10:48pm PST NEW
                                    Re: Part Two by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST NEW
                    Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 9:15pm PST NEW
                Bob McNamara Lives! by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 5:05pm PST NEW
                    Re: Bob McNamara Lives! by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:39pm PST NEW
                        Um... by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 7:48pm PST NEW
                            Re: Um... by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 8:17pm PST NEW
                                Well, then I'll spell it out for you by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 8:46pm PST NEW
                                    Re: Well, then I'll spell it out for you by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 10:56pm PST NEW
                                        Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 12:47am PST NEW
                                            Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Lufteufel 01/21/2003, 1:34am PST NEW
                                                Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 2:44am PST NEW
                                                    Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 5:11pm PST NEW
                                            Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 10:53am PST NEW
                                                Sounds GREAT!! by ToutSuite 01/22/2003, 2:14am PST NEW
                                                    Re: Sounds GREAT!! by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 10:29am PST NEW
            Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:14pm PST NEW
                Re: I feel like starting a fight by conflictNo 01/20/2003, 10:12pm PST NEW
                    Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 1:23am PST NEW
                        But Kissinger wears glasses! You can't hate a guy with glasses. n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/21/2003, 1:52am PST NEW
                        Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:50pm PST NEW
    Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 8:11pm PST NEW
        Nice thread, BTW(NT) by Bodybag 01/22/2003, 12:13am PST NEW
            My post is obviously the best, of course. (nt) by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 4:51am PST NEW
        Many legends in this thread. NT by Horus Truthteller 01/12/2022, 11:52am PST NEW
            Sadly they all promised not to help against Thanos so . . . NT by laudablepuss 01/12/2022, 3:19pm PST NEW
    XYBERHUGE -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 01/31/2003, 1:24am PST NEW
        WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Jhoh Creexul SUPER GAYAN 01/31/2003, 7:45pm PST NEW
 
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