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by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST |
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World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
Your mindset reflects the moral position that such calculations are permissible - that, in short, human lives and civilizations and societies can have monetary values. It's a variety of utilitarianism which has set up exchange rates.
That end of things complicates and clouds the idea, an idea I believe is fundamentally correct in spite of its moral repugnance. For safety's sake, let's consider it axiomatic and move on.
World Affairs Correspondent Zseni wrote:
Nobody believes that the war is furthering any possible gain for us and even for Iraq except for a stable source of very clean oil. However most people are apparently willing to let the matter rest with the officials; either way they don't care all that much about Iraqi lives, and they are willing to lose a few American ones in order to secure the oil. How can that possibly jibe with pro-life rhetoric? How can it possibly jibe with environmentalist rhetoric?
What are wars fought over? Land, labour, and captial. The Germans weren't starving, nor the Romans. The New World was discovered while looking to improve the royalty's luxury FedEx service, and conquered because the European economy produced better soldiers (better-fed, -educated and -equipped) and more of them.
The Germans and Japanese had arguably superior economic systems (still do) but were beaten back in a war of resource-attrition, after their economies failed to scale up as fast as they'd hoped. We had more money for planes, for experimentation, and for training; we beat them and disarmed them up, because (unlike the Germans') our moral system forbids genocide (American Natives are another example).
Not wanting to repeat the Axis' mistake, we devised a "test war", for each side to size up the other without pesky retaliations on the homeland. Vietnam ended in stalemate: we could afford to conquer, but the cost was unacceptable. Gueriila war and random screwing about with Communist satellite states was the next evolution of technique.
Assassination was tried, once. It turns out some leaders take that personally and so the smart play is to announce, loudly, that you won't assassinate anyone else, ever ever ever, I promise.
Remember the panic when the Japanese were buying shit up and starving us out with cheaper cars? Protectionism was a clever twist, but once again our way prevailed. They got to keep Hawaii this time, that's our way.
("We", from here down, means "the industrialized capitalist states")
That brings us to modern times. Now, we're so far ahead that economic sanctions are enough to get "rogue" states playing ball. The next step is finding a pretext to apply sanctions on nations with inferior economic beliefs.
That W.T.O. sure meets often, no? And the heads of state always attend. I digress.
Remember the last war's casualty rates? A soldier there was less likely to die than the pregnant wife he left at home. Think of the awesome gap in wealth that requires -- "we can destroy you all without risking one of our own".
So, you're Saddam. Open markets means the death of your way of life. The Americans will buy everything, elections included. The alternative, sanctions, will knock your nation back a couple of centuries. Guerillas and saboteurs can put you back a couple more. Once enough of your population is diseased and starving, some lawyers and bankers will come over and foreclose. Moreover, you happen to be running the physically largest and politically weakest state of its kind, i.e. those that reject capitalism. They have the bomb but will never let you develop it. You are the example. You are fucked.
This Israel thing -- think of it as "Vietnam II". Bin Laden tried to mass the troops, but oops. The subsequent bombing of a beaten country was a show, to pacify the rabble.
Vietnam went the other way, this time. Iraq will be the opening round (think of it as Poland). The Korean business will be messy, but that's a uniquely Japanese problem and gee, we Americans would like to buy Hawaii back someday.
With Iraq "solved," the stragglers will topple, one-by-one. Once we have everyone on the Open Markets kick, rogue states can be reigned in by cutting off their net access for a few months. Knock their Salid Jones market index on its ass a few times and they'll get the hint.
Where is the consistency in American political thought? At either end of the political spectrum, and most especially in the middle. Where is the force of public opinion? What is public opinion anymore?
My opinion: Warts and all, I like our system. I will tolerate theirs, even if I think it inferior, provided they remain unarmed. If they insist on developing a plausible threat, the strategically correct move is prompt attack.
In other news, I've rejected my Israel-abandonment thesis.
Actually, this is the hour of triumph for the higher-ups. A war which is essentially indefensible, which benefits only the conspicuous and unsustainable consumption habits of the world's most wealthy nation, is going to get pushed over everyone's head unchecked.
That's exactly what it is. More money and resources, for us as a nation. People at the top of the food chain will get more of that money, but don't suspect it doesn't make its way through the professional and service industries eventually. Also: watch for some whopper antitrust actions.
If they really can pull it off, the promise of Vietnam has at last come true: public opinion and serious political thought are dead in America.
I think it's at an all-time high. I also think that that time since Vietnam has weaned us onto the realities outlined above.
More than that: the rise of doublethink is at last upon us. It would be one thing if our nation's leaders would say, flat out, that we're going into Iraq because we want stability in the region for our own ends and a steady supply of gasoline - but they don't say that, because who can support it? Yet the majority of the nation's citizens, who cannot possibly avoid the fact that this is what the war is really over, gives its tacit support nonetheless.
And there's the saddest and ironically inspiring part: our organization as humans has grown to the point where the correct action of the body politic runs counter to the intuitively-correct human-being action. Our leaders attempt to couch the realities in familiar terms, because the truth is that our morals as a state are not the same as our morals as humans, and it must be so. The alternative is destruction by an "immoral" state, one that doesn't like to bear the costs of, say, preserving the sanctity of human life.
What I want to do, and what, I think, must be done - eventually - is to rebel and revolt and remake. Indeed I would be satisfied to up voter turnout to, say, 60%, which is at least a fractional revolution. But I have anime to download.
The first cannot be done without some radical shift in technology. The second? I question what good it would do.
Is this not unbearable hypocrisy? Who among you can claim to be fully free of it? Why aren't we all more enraged about it? It's unnatural.
Darwinism's as natural as it gets, baby.
Ray! |
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I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 6:46am PST 
Scott Ritter by Colonel K 01/19/2003, 8:16am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 9:29am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 8:16pm PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 3:42am PST 
North Korea by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:47am PST 
Re: North Korea by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 12:53am PST 
Re: Scott Ritter by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:00pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Cantor 01/19/2003, 12:33pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 2:03pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Fight 01/19/2003, 4:06pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by CrackerBarrel 01/19/2003, 4:37pm PST 
Dear Assumptive Idiot by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST 
So by "I feel like starting a fight" You meant "Suck my cock or you're an idiot" by Fight 01/19/2003, 6:34pm PST 
Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- NT by motherhead 01/19/2003, 7:54pm PST 
Yeah, good call, M-head by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 1:46pm PST 
Re: Oh man I so knew you were the fucking janitor -nt- by Bill Dungsroman 01/21/2003, 12:53pm PST 
More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 10:26pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by the janitor 01/21/2003, 11:24pm PST 
You owe me a beer, I just spit this one up. by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 11:36pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by juniorallen 01/22/2003, 9:41am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/22/2003, 11:50am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/23/2003, 9:10pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Motherhead 01/24/2003, 4:47am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Bill Dungsroman 01/24/2003, 11:38am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 7:17pm PST 
Dear Fight-Who-Is-Not-the-janitor by Bill Dungsroman 01/25/2003, 8:41pm PST 
responce is English... by arbit 01/26/2003, 1:11am PST 
Clarification for your ass by Senor Barborito 01/25/2003, 10:46pm PST 
some help by arbit 01/26/2003, 12:37am PST 
Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 3:30am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by Motherhead 01/26/2003, 3:56am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by Colonel K 01/26/2003, 5:44am PST 
Re: Random BOLD text. by FABIO 02/01/2003, 6:33am PST 
Re: some help by Senor Barborito 01/26/2003, 10:58am PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Ray, of Light 01/24/2003, 8:50pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Fight 01/24/2003, 9:03pm PST 
Re: More Janitor sightings by Gotta be KD 01/27/2003, 5:29pm PST 
No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 8:03pm PST 
Here is something. by conflictNo 01/19/2003, 9:35pm PST 
North Korea is the license-to-print-money threat of the century. by Fucking Faggot 01/19/2003, 11:36pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 12:08am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:04am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by IMDBMAN 01/20/2003, 10:03pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/20/2003, 11:10pm PST 
All movies with Powers Boothe have merit. by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 7:12am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:31am PST 
completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 4:57am PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 9:09am PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 12:28pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 3:18pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 3:50pm PST 
Re: completely unrelated shit by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:04am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Fight 01/20/2003, 5:33am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 6:44am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 10:13pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:30am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/21/2003, 11:10pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:16am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Bodybag 01/23/2003, 4:19am PST 
Also good for body count: a Dwayne Hicks-like "FORGET HIM, HE'S GONE" (nt) by creativepig 01/23/2003, 7:42am PST 
zero-sum by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 12:28am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:20pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:24pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:54am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by E. L. Koba 01/22/2003, 1:23am PST 
I was mistaken, thank you -nt- by Senor Barborito 01/22/2003, 7:18am PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:24pm PST 
Also by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:52pm PST 
Re: Also by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 4:42am PST 
Re: Also by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:45pm PST 
Re: No, I meant 'Suck my cock AND you're an idiot either way.' by Gotta Be KD 01/21/2003, 3:55am PST 
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:44pm PST 
Re: Dear Assumptive Idiot by Old Post Fighter 06/22/2021, 4:23pm PDT 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 4:43pm PST 
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 4:57pm PST 
Link by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:35pm PST 
Re: socialized medicine in Canada by Motherhead 01/19/2003, 6:38pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Ray, of Light 01/19/2003, 5:19pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/19/2003, 5:46pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 6:30pm PST 
Live from Ethniclistan by World Affairs Correspondent Zseni 01/19/2003, 6:08pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/19/2003, 7:35pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Kree 01/20/2003, 10:00am PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 10:19am PST 
Here's my chance to be the Harriet Tubbman of nerds (nt) NT by creativepig 01/20/2003, 3:54pm PST 
OK so you marry veronica and then divorce and she marries me -NT- by Senor Barborito 01/20/2003, 4:03pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 6:04pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 6:15pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Motherhead 01/20/2003, 6:46pm PST 
War or Pandemic? Can't it be both? n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/20/2003, 7:09pm PST 
Not when you are dividing the aftermath amonst the illuminati by Motherhead 01/21/2003, 5:13am PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:16pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 12:57am PST 
PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by Zseni 01/20/2003, 10:35am PST 
I'll wait -nt- by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 1:01pm PST 
Re: PS: Fuck you for making me stay to write this. by laudablepuss 01/20/2003, 4:09pm PST 
Fuck that stupid cunt. The next one will stay the fuck out of the street. by Bodybag 01/20/2003, 8:09pm PST 
Part Two by Zseni 01/20/2003, 7:50pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 9:46pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Zseni 01/21/2003, 10:36am PST 
Re: Part Two by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 6:03pm PST 
How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Zseni 01/22/2003, 12:46pm PST 
A: at least a few, but fewer than you think by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 9:26pm PST 
Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Zseni 01/22/2003, 11:08pm PST 
I feel like ending a fight by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:40pm PST 
Re: Because nothing says loving like following the conversational drift. by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 11:13pm PST 
Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by creativepig 01/23/2003, 8:06am PST 
Re: Car Stuff feat. Gay Chemistry & Elementary Fluid Mechanics by Ray, of Light 01/23/2003, 7:59pm PST 
I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Fussbett 01/23/2003, 10:34pm PST 
Re: I've got a Chevy with a Mopar cam. by Kimberly Scott 01/12/2022, 12:46am PST 
DUDE SIGN ME UP FOR SOME OF THAT! NT by Leisuretown 01/14/2022, 4:54am PST 
KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 2:13am PST 
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by The regretful proxy 01/24/2003, 2:55am PST 
Motherfuck by Entropy Stew 01/24/2003, 3:09am PST 
Re: KNEEL BEFORE ZEOLITE! by Stacy Collins 11/04/2021, 8:34am PDT 
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:32pm PST 
Re: How many times do we have to make these mistakes before... by E. L. Koba 01/31/2003, 2:48am PST 
Re: Part Two by Bodybag 01/21/2003, 7:04pm PST 
what I don't like about your plan by spelling fag 01/21/2003, 10:48pm PST 
Re: Part Two by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 10:17pm PST 
Re: Live from Ethniclistan by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 9:15pm PST 
Bob McNamara Lives! by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 5:05pm PST 
Re: Bob McNamara Lives! by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 7:39pm PST 
Um... by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 7:48pm PST 
Re: Um... by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 8:17pm PST 
Well, then I'll spell it out for you by ToutSuite 01/20/2003, 8:46pm PST 
Re: Well, then I'll spell it out for you by Ray, of Light 01/20/2003, 10:56pm PST 
Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 12:47am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Lufteufel 01/21/2003, 1:34am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by ToutSuite 01/21/2003, 2:44am PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Diotallevi 01/30/2003, 5:11pm PST 
Re: Thanks for all the guesses, but I'll speak for myself by Ray, of Light 01/21/2003, 10:53am PST 
Sounds GREAT!! by ToutSuite 01/22/2003, 2:14am PST 
Re: Sounds GREAT!! by Ray, of Light 01/22/2003, 10:29am PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/20/2003, 9:14pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by conflictNo 01/20/2003, 10:12pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Senor Barborito 01/21/2003, 1:23am PST 
But Kissinger wears glasses! You can't hate a guy with glasses. n/T NT by mrs. johnson 01/21/2003, 1:52am PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Diotallevi 01/23/2003, 10:50pm PST 
Re: I feel like starting a fight by Jhoh Creexul 01/19/2003, 8:11pm PST 
Nice thread, BTW(NT) by Bodybag 01/22/2003, 12:13am PST 
My post is obviously the best, of course. (nt) by Jhoh Creexul 01/22/2003, 4:51am PST 
Many legends in this thread. NT by Horus Truthteller 01/12/2022, 11:52am PST 
Sadly they all promised not to help against Thanos so . . . NT by laudablepuss 01/12/2022, 3:19pm PST 
XYBERHUGE -nt- NT by Entropy Stew 01/31/2003, 1:24am PST 
WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Jhoh Creexul SUPER GAYAN 01/31/2003, 7:45pm PST 
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