Zseni wrote:

You and Whorebach both think that the white people are going to just GIVE the brown people all that stuff because it's "right."

Have you ever washed a rental car before you returned it?

And then you want my whole line of argument to consist of guns = freedom, when I took enormous pains to designate the very particular and very American conditions which support a gun-owning populace, and you clumsily - like Whorebach - want to turn everyone into the same person.

YES, brown people want food and shelter.

Brown people don't want YOUR social approval, YOUR spiritual fulfillment, and YOUR bacon-n-beef.

A successful multicultural society needs to figure out a way to get the white people their bacon and preachers, and brown people their watermelon and mullahs, without having either of them kill the others. The American way of doing this involves making everything available and giving everyone a shot at it - including the implements of force and economic domination. This is a reasonably good solution to the problem at hand and neither of you clowns have come up with a better one.

The Whorebach solution, where we take away the guns from absolutely everyone (on the planet?), is unrealistic because it ignores - completely - that some people want power more than peace. I mean they just fundamentally WANT power. That's who they are. That's their bacon. It only takes two of those guys to start a problem area. In the meantime, either Whorebach just WANTS power enough to strip the weapons out of everyone's hands, or he's just proposed a solution which he can't implement. I mean there's no way to implement disarmament without having all the people who want power, and who run countries, to stop using power to get what they want. And why would they do that?!??!???

The MM solution is to say that guns are just incredibly evil and the sign of a disturbed mind, and anyone who gets down with them is wrong wrong wrong. BECAUSE IT'S JUST OBVIOUS. A fine legal mind at work. Anyway, you know all those polls that show 60% of America wants more gun control? Now you, MM, are prepared to call 40% of the USA incredibly evil and disturbed. That's also fine, but it's not useful, and it does not get you what you want. In particular it doesn't persuade anyone who isn't already persuaded, and it does not enable you to either understand or manage the problems presented to and by a gun-owning society.

You guys are the kind of liberals that make Rush Limbaugh cream himself.

You're giving up the known strengths of the liberal position - an interest in domestic policy, compassion, the motivation to make other people's lives better - in favor of all the known weaknesses - presumption that you know what's best for everyone, shallow and idealistic conceptions of people as a whole, ineffectual shoegazing. For people who pride themselves on their tolerance and support for brown people, you mark yourselves as bigots as soon as those brown people start mouthing inappropriate political sentiments.

Where is your tolerance bred, in the heart or in the head?

I know a lot of white people who would much rather give brown people food than farming implements.

I know a lot of white people who would rather that all brown people had needs that they, white people, could identify and provide for. How do you and Whorebach plan to accomodate the little brown need for a glorious death or a wife with her labia and clitoris cut off? Or is that kind of spiritual fulfillment not true and real enough for you?