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Forum Overview
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Gamerasutra
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by Welcome to Omsk 06/29/2016, 10:28pm PDT |
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I love torment. But it's just us in the thread now, Stew. Nobody else gives a single fuck. So let's look at the components of the narrative, and throw in the rest of the game for good measure. Narrative does not exist in vacuum and distracting bullshit features take away from my ability to enjoy it; sometimes a good narrative is marred by poor execution. So.
Every character, every playable, selectable character, is the sort of thing that you cannot describe to a seasoned pen and paper gamer without eliciting groans of frustration about munchkin shit. The party face is a fuck-ugly deathless guy who ran out on his ex in the throes of his Machiavellian Xanatos Gambit paranoid bullshit with a throat cancer voice and a bad fashion sense upstaged only by a hide scarred enough to be a map of Paris. The rest of the cast are a CuhRAYzee arsonist floating guy on fire that buffs your spells by mutilating you, a skull from hell that chews on faces and goes on about how blueballed it is, a mobile set of armor that's full of a gothy murderous hack&slash ethos about uberjustice and judging everyone wanting, a succubus that won't eat souls ever again honest but works in a brothel, a saucy irish tiefling, an oh-SO-wacky construct that talks like Urkel on adderall, and a guilt-ridden wise asian elf monk with a moodring superkatana made of liquid metal. It takes every one of Torment's half-million words to carry them off well, and it's a close thing in the end. If this party was created by gamers at my table everyone present would be a hopelessly greasy unshowered foreveralone cheetoe-eating fedora-wearing neckbeard.
The game comes loaded with a Neo Matrix aesop about belief and faith being a necessity of life. This isn't a bad message for a game to bring across, certainly not the worst thing a game's tried to teach its audience - Dragon Commander wanted every political decision to be about whether or not we cared about burning gay art during a war or some shit, you know, don't build a dam that could turn the tide of world war fucking two because of a spotted owl. The story moral is somewhat hamhandedly managed in Torment as the main character finally gets to believe in himself at the end and promptly starts speaking in allcaps and having glowing eyes like a demigod (take THAT, Throne of Baal). However, if this is the standard for game narrative then the high water mark for cRPGs is a morality play.
The later area designs aren't as fully fleshed out as the early ones, let alone as memorable or distinguishable. The quests get thin, the dialogue gets noticeably less descriptive, the design overall gives the sense that the fine people running the show blew their load early to midgame. There is a feeling of crossing a watershed line when you leave Sigil and travel the planes: here's where they ran out of man-hours, here's where they scrounged time and money or scrapped an idea. The fan fixpack restored a massive heap of little content details (and fixed enough spelling mistakes to make it plain where those Obsidian rockstars learned that bugfixes and testing are for nerds), and that was cool because at the time nobody expected quality without flaws from Black Isle and Interplay. When your game crashed in Starfleet Command, that came with the territory. Okay fine, resources are resources - except we've been hearing about how cool and varied and colorful the late-game destinations are gonna be the whole way and the first place we go is some ::tumbleweed:: desert shithole town made of brown and rust-red and gray, and then we go to a prison. You take me out to such nice places, Mister Avellone! And all after scut work in the slums got the most colorful, the most developed that the game's ever gonna be? This is literally a pear-shaped, front-heavy narrative. Games can do better than this.
The dual-classing, while handled in a cool ingame fashion, ended up being silly as opportunity costs went. There are better thieves and better warriors, you couldn't even wear armor for fuck's sake. Might as well have just phased out the thief and warrior by a certain level and gone full mage because that's where the core content was anyway, surprising in a world where everything was magic. Just had to reach for that useless gimmick though.
The NPC AI is a fucking wreck, which is nothing new and it's a rare game that doesn't have this problem. They do nothing useful by themselves and have to be microed, and for God's sake don't let them decide which spells to cast or which abilities to use. It's like a MoO3 viceroy. Might as well micro everything, good thing they give you a pause button. TOEE's action selection was clearer, incidentally.
The interface is a very pretty clusterfuck in a few ways, notably when it comes to inventory management. I must have spent at least three hours of game time handling inventory management, especially on trips to and from some merchant to sell everything off to get enough copper to buy bandages and needles and wacky magic items. That's me, nameless deathless planehopping jewish tinker. I'm surprised the game didn't come with ten-foot poles to prod dungeon tiles in search of traps. Oh, and try finding anything you needed to re-read in that journal. Arcanum had a better journal lsyout and that one looked like something you'd use for actual honest-to-god daily life office work. For that escapist feeling of getting away from the grind.
The weak combat sequences ('which the game was never about!' cries a chorus of faggots that didn't ever offer to come to my house and play them for me so I could experience the pure core of whatever the game was really about, you know, instead of what was in it for me to DO) are used in several places to pad the hours between the game's beginning and end, unless you want to lose out on badass experiences and writing or not have enough money for some of the really cool/fun shit. So in a narrative game I had to grind hive thugs and fuck with the merchant NPCs to take advantage of their shifting price system. It's not even 2nd ed D&D that's at fault, just the lack of focus on content for combat in favor of more gristmill encounters. Complete with a random maze you couldn't even farm properly while needing money that tried to paper over the problem by shouting jokes over the fourth wall.
The extra-rare cool items that would eliminate some savescumming and had item descriptions probably worth reading are only available as a random drop if you run Undersigil a hundred fucking times, and maybe not even then, so I might as well not bother and just cheat or read the description in a mobygames screenshot. So glad they worked hard to flesh out THAT content.
Torment works hard to be great, and it hangs together well, but nearly every one of its aspects has been eclipsed over time by some game somewhere. Narrative, you say, is unchallenged. Yes, I suppose for pure text I could say it's on par with anything I'd care to throw at it but sometimes I wonder if that's my nostalgia talking. Games have moved on - features have shifted in a way that makes Torment look like Diablo when it's compared to Torchlight, and storytelling is handled differently now. But there are games that feature that many words of narrative - Fallen London is one - and can be compared directly. They make for good enough contenders, and unlike Black Isle titles they're not marred by years of Bioware products stinking up the genre. It's amazing what a successor company can do to the reputation of associated works. |
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Games you quit early on and why by fabio 06/17/2016, 8:08am PDT 
Civ V by mark 06/17/2016, 9:39am PDT
Metroid Other M by Mysterio 06/17/2016, 12:06pm PDT
The Shadowgate remake. by Mischief Maker 06/17/2016, 5:40pm PDT
I think I quit just before that by fabio 06/18/2016, 3:13am PDT
Fallout 4 by Oom Shnibble 06/18/2016, 6:23am PDT
Crazy Taxi for the PC by Worm 06/18/2016, 11:58am PDT
Resident Evil 4 by Sly Marbo 06/18/2016, 8:06pm PDT
WHAT ARE YA BOIEN NT by Mysterio 06/18/2016, 9:34pm PDT
Sly Marbo, YOU'RE small time! NT by zing 06/18/2016, 10:20pm PDT
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri by blackwater 06/19/2016, 2:03am PDT
Crypt of the Necrodancer by Mischief Maker 06/20/2016, 10:35am PDT
Are you doing All-Zones or the Story Mode? by Lurker 234523 06/20/2016, 11:38am PDT
Planescape: Torment by laudablepuss 06/20/2016, 12:04pm PDT
You monster NT by Entropy Stew 06/20/2016, 10:08pm PDT
It's a wordy game too by laudablepuss 06/21/2016, 10:11am PDT
That part was probably the biggest knife in the gut by Entropy Stew 06/21/2016, 8:35pm PDT
Re: That part was probably the biggest knife in the gut by laudablepuss 06/22/2016, 8:00am PDT
GOG has it, but the infinity engine has not aged well at all NT by Rafiki 06/22/2016, 8:25am PDT
That was a particularly clunky incarnation of the infinity engine, too NT by Entropy Stew 06/29/2016, 6:01pm PDT
Re: That part was probably the biggest knife in the gut by Ice Cream Jonsey 06/22/2016, 11:47am PDT
It's a floating skull, which is why it has a floating skull character image by Welcome to Omsk 06/22/2016, 2:47pm PDT
What frigging part of modern RPGs has outdone Planescape at narrative? NT by The omnisexual dating sims? 06/22/2016, 3:11pm PDT
Planescape is...a game that doesn't thrive under even cursory reductive analysis by Welcome to Omsk 06/29/2016, 10:28pm PDT
My experience with Torment. by Dream Cast 06/29/2016, 11:59pm PDT
The awful quality of '97-2001 scifi dramas are one reason their leads consid by lending their time/voices to gaming 06/30/2016, 6:31am PDT
Watched Jeffrey last night, spent the whole thing wishing it was Tim Daly in the NT by Michael T. Weiss role :( 07/05/2016, 10:10pm PDT
You could give this reductive devil's advocate treatment to any game by fabio 06/30/2016, 1:09am PDT
Everyone has a Dragonfall to slot into such statements by Welcome to Omsk 06/30/2016, 6:05am PDT
I feel like this whole thing just comes back to voice acting by Worm 07/01/2016, 12:54pm PDT
fully voiced choice simulators are in a different genre than old school cRPGs by Welcome to Omsk 07/02/2016, 12:27am PDT
What part of "at narrative" don't you understand? by The omnisexual dating sims? 06/30/2016, 6:41am PDT
It's inextricable from the overall presentation. And the fan patches for typos. by BELIEVE IN YOURSELF 06/30/2016, 7:05am PDT
So give me an example of a modern CRPG that did narrative better. NT by The omnisexual dating sims? 06/30/2016, 7:44am PDT
What I told Fabio, basically. There are no modern CRPGs, current RPGs are by different animals 06/30/2016, 9:54am PDT
This is the worst internet analogy I've ever read by and that includes Qt3 07/06/2016, 11:17pm PDT
Re: It's a floating skull, which is why it has a floating skull character image by Ice Cream Jonsey 06/30/2016, 12:56am PDT
might be confusing it with eyeball in the 'eye' slot on equip/inventory screen by Welcome to Omsk 06/30/2016, 1:53pm PDT
Well, since there's no screenshots in this thread, I suppose we agreed to disagr by Ice Cream Jonsey 06/30/2016, 4:10pm PDT
I don't know if I'm George Burns or Gracie Allen in this thread anymore NT by Welcome to Omsk 06/30/2016, 6:17pm PDT
Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun by Welcome to Omsk 06/20/2016, 4:29pm PDT
Dead Space on PC. Only thing I've ever encountered that gave me motion sickness NT by Rafiki 06/20/2016, 8:53pm PDT
Let's talk about games we bought and never even installed once by laudablepuss 06/21/2016, 8:58am PDT
Oh you guys. NT by artist formerly known as Eurotrash 06/21/2016, 1:54pm PDT
I heard it was FER PEDOFULLLLLS NT by laudablepuss 06/22/2016, 2:19pm PDT
Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed by artist formerly known as Eurotrash 06/21/2016, 2:00pm PDT
Mass Effect NT by Slash fiction: the game 06/21/2016, 2:43pm PDT
Seconding Assassin's Creed. Also: Mirror's Edge by Rafiki 06/21/2016, 3:22pm PDT
It was not good in that it was fucking awful NT by Entropy Stew 06/21/2016, 8:19pm PDT
Oh yeah, me too on AC. NT by Mischief Maker 06/21/2016, 3:31pm PDT
O shit I wasn't even playing and I think we've won NT by Roop 06/22/2016, 1:18pm PDT
If anybody doesn't have one, Limbo is free on Steam right now. NT by Dream Cast 06/21/2016, 2:39pm PDT
Jagged Alliance - Back in Action by artist formerly known as Eurotrash 06/22/2016, 3:26pm PDT
Bioshock by artist formerly known as Eurotrash 06/22/2016, 3:30pm PDT
Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead by artist formerly known as Eurotrash 06/22/2016, 3:40pm PDT
Battlefleet Gothic by fabio 06/22/2016, 7:11pm PDT
Eveything by Entropy Stew 07/02/2016, 7:09am PDT
Same. by Fullofkittens 07/02/2016, 8:40am PDT
Re: Same. by Rafiki 09/23/2016, 4:39pm PDT
The world ends with you by Mischief Maker 09/23/2016, 12:41pm PDT
I set the top to auto and focused on stomping ass lower screen. by Might not be your cuppa 09/23/2016, 3:49pm PDT
Oxenfree by fabio 10/24/2016, 2:57am PDT
Space Rangers by Mischief Maker 10/24/2016, 6:29am PDT
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Super Mario Odyssey by Respiv 12/17/2024, 9:28am PST
Factorio by blackwater 12/17/2024, 10:01am PST
Endless Space 2 by Mischief Maker 12/17/2024, 11:08pm PST
Your mistake was buying the Awakening DLC, regarded as the 2nd worst NT by Mysterio 12/20/2024, 9:18pm PST
No, this is base game with all DLCs disabled. by Mischief Maker 01/09/2025, 7:09am PST
Amplitude just isn't good at making 4X games. by Told ya 01/08/2025, 9:53pm PST
Crybaby shitlicker is back by ignore this baby 01/08/2025, 10:32pm PST
The worthless posters are waddling back by Just ban them 01/08/2025, 10:46pm PST
Ban anyone who thinks Cyberpunk and Amplitude games are imperfect by Do you hear yourself? 01/09/2025, 11:53am PST
Try some preparation H you butthurt loser NT by Not Geryk 01/09/2025, 2:29pm PST
Trying to "guess" who wrote something is the worst post possible. by Hangman 01/09/2025, 3:12pm PST
I think making a dumb post with no content is the worst post possible by Not Geryk 01/10/2025, 11:54am PST
Again, leave the site. Nobody wants you here. by Hangman 01/10/2025, 12:20pm PST
Let's try again. What do you object to about the criticism of Amplitude? NT by not geryk 01/10/2025, 3:00pm PST
Your name is "not geryk"? Really? That is what you're going with? by Start over 01/10/2025, 9:20pm PST
I am the alpha here. NT by Start over 01/11/2025, 8:53am PST
70,000 players a day on Steam for Cyberpunk by Hangman 01/13/2025, 3:58pm PST
No Mans Sky has 10k. GOTY? Stop pretending to be retarded. NT by Its good but its not the best 01/13/2025, 4:08pm PST
Why would you post that? NMS has nothing to do with anything. by Hangman 01/13/2025, 5:39pm PST
He won't pick a nick because he would get so much more abuse by fucking moron 01/13/2025, 6:37pm PST
The category is...GAMES THAT WERE SHIT ON LAUNCH FOR 500 NT by you dumb fyck 01/13/2025, 9:23pm PST
It wasn't "SHIT ON LAUNCH" you screaming autistic retard. by Hangman 01/14/2025, 9:01am PST
It was though. Why dies everyone keep trying to revise history? NT by COVID related memory loss? 01/14/2025, 10:20am PST
Let's look at the reviews. Then I give up. by Hangman 01/14/2025, 10:36am PST
Why don't you be nicer to him? He is at least contributing posts. by LurkerDan 01/14/2025, 11:01am PST
Nobody needs you white knighting for them "Dan" NT by Creepy and Concerning 01/14/2025, 11:37am PST
Oh man how could I forget the 100% review from.....GamesRadar. You got me by Just one question 01/14/2025, 12:53pm PST
For what it's worth, I loved Cyberpunk 2077 when I played it recently. by blackwater 01/14/2025, 4:19pm PST
Re: For what it's worth, I loved Cyberpunk 2077 when I played it recently. by PC version was 01/14/2025, 4:54pm PST
The PS4 version wasn't ready. already been said. by PC version was 01/14/2025, 4:53pm PST
You think talking about a game not being perfect is "Geryk posting" by Are you having a stroke? 01/10/2025, 1:12am PST
Remember when we used to talk about talking about games? NT by Hank Hill 01/14/2025, 12:36pm PST
Not really. No. NT by LurkerDan 01/14/2025, 12:40pm PST
Thanks for ruining another thread, you miserable NT by Fuckwad 01/09/2025, 7:47am PST
Threads you quit early on and why by This one 01/14/2025, 12:46pm PST
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