Forum Overview :: Are Games Art?
 
Re: You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by mark 05/22/2003, 10:10am PDT
Entropy Stew wrote:


GA != intelligence, and I don't know why people keep saying it does. Does the evolutionary process GA is based off of think? Fuck no. All it is is directed semi-random meanderings across the entire problem domain.


Who (other than SB, I guess) says it equals intelligence? It would be pretty impressive that intelligence could be contained in tiny amount of code + a random number generator. If this is all bottom up means, then yes logicians would not be interested in it. Determinism has its place and, frankly, GA are sort of boring.


The trick is to use heuristic maps to set ranges within which highly flexible neural networks can run wild, using trial and error to teach them what works and what does not on a visual level.


That's even stupider than your Carmack-as-the-competent-implementor platform.

1. Your solution is actually a horribly disfigured genetic algorithm


Right and disfigured means 'unlikely to yield correct answer.' Here 'correct answer' is unclear because we (as you point out below) have no metric top judge our success. Even if we did, GA are proven to converge on the right answer as time goes to infinity because it tries every stupid solution. In a system where we set ranges, we claim to already know so much about the problem space that maybe we should be using deterministic methods. Probably we aren't sure, so we should not set ranges at all, other than to eliminate values that give impossible results (something, again, probably impossible in the scope of auto-generating a videogame).


2. It would (sort of) work if the fitness evaluation function could JUDGE THE QUALITY OF THE GAMEWORLD
3. Judging the quality of the gameworld is AI-complete
4. The code to generate the world for each iteration would be the largest thing ever written if you wanted any sort of originality. 100% originality for this process would also be AI-complete.


I am suspicious of a term like AI-complete. With NP-complete problems, we have a number of nice qualities among these: a reduction proof which proves NP-completeness, and the ability to understand how to prehaps reduce the complexity of a problem until it winds up in P. On the general class of graphs Longest Path is NP-complete, it is in P on a DAG; can any AI-complete be provably reduced to a computable form? Regardless, I agree that the above problems are very very hard. Maybe on some level people are too quick to equate AI-Complete with NP-Complete which is why we end up with hill-climbing as the ultimate solution.

mark
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ARE GAMES ART? Avault investigates. by Fussbett 05/20/2003, 5:57pm PDT NEW
    ... by Lizard_King 05/20/2003, 6:04pm PDT NEW
    Re: ARE GAMES ART? Avault investigates. by Monty Cantsin 05/21/2003, 1:09am PDT NEW
        Re: ARE GAMES ART? Avault investigates. by Monty Cantsin 05/21/2003, 1:15am PDT NEW
            Shock and Awe by Entropy Stew 05/21/2003, 1:21am PDT NEW
                Re: Shock and Awe by ydrt 05/21/2003, 1:27am PDT NEW
                    Maybe YOU should be the new about page!!!!! NT by Entropy Stew 05/21/2003, 1:31am PDT NEW
                        also: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH NT by Entropy Stew 05/21/2003, 1:31am PDT NEW
                        We've got more about page jokes over here NT by GAY THREAD CONTAINMENT TEAM STATLER 05/21/2003, 3:01am PDT NEW
                            Tell me more about We've got more about page jokes over here NT by Dr. Sbaitso 05/21/2003, 3:22am PDT NEW
                            You know what fixes repetetive jokes? OLDER REPETETIVE JOKES! NT by Entropy Stew 05/21/2003, 3:34am PDT NEW
                                BWA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! NT by GAY THREAD CONTAINMENT TEAM WALDORF 05/21/2003, 4:30am PDT NEW
                                    I desperately hope I crash NT by The Forum SB 05/21/2003, 5:14am PDT NEW
                                        ATOR? NT by Y-DURT 05/21/2003, 5:16am PDT NEW
            Holy fuck. I never, ever, EVER thought I would see that. by Senor Barborito 05/21/2003, 3:44pm PDT NEW
                Re: Holy fuck. I never, ever, EVER thought I would see that. by Entropy Stew 05/21/2003, 4:50pm PDT NEW
                    Pffft by Senor Barborito 05/21/2003, 6:02pm PDT NEW
                        Re: Pffft by mark 05/21/2003, 8:44pm PDT NEW
                            Ixnay by Senor Barborito 05/21/2003, 9:19pm PDT NEW
                                "his" not "he's". Going to bed now. NT by Senor Barborito 05/21/2003, 9:20pm PDT NEW
                                You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by Entropy Stew 05/22/2003, 2:58am PDT NEW
                                    Re: You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by mark 05/22/2003, 10:10am PDT NEW
                                        Re: You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by Entropy Stew 05/22/2003, 5:52pm PDT NEW
                                            Re: You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 7:17pm PDT NEW
                                                Re: You just had to screw it up in the thread where you prove Monty wrong by Monty Cantsin 05/22/2003, 8:05pm PDT NEW
                                                    Um, no by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 8:26pm PDT NEW
                                    If I think you're already dead enough, will it happen? by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 1:33pm PDT NEW
                                        You're horribly, horribly confused on practically every level by Entropy Stew 05/22/2003, 5:31pm PDT NEW
                                            Your failure to even attempt being informed is making me hemorrhage. by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 8:23pm PDT NEW
                                                Just my artsy fartsy two cents... by Chairman Mao 05/22/2003, 8:55pm PDT NEW
                                                    Re: Just my artsy fartsy two cents... by mark 05/22/2003, 9:07pm PDT NEW
                                                        That is one of the funniest things I have ever seen... NT by Chairman Mao 05/22/2003, 9:12pm PDT NEW
                                                    Well, here's the problem by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 9:10pm PDT NEW
                                                        Re: Well, here's the problem by Chairman Mao 05/22/2003, 9:17pm PDT NEW
                                                            Answer by Senor Barborito 05/22/2003, 11:05pm PDT NEW
        Re: ARE GAMES ART? Avault investigates. by Fussbett 05/21/2003, 6:37pm PDT NEW
 
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