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Forum Overview
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Dead Trees
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by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 5:13pm PDT |
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Boiling down your argument to the only points I have to knock out to bring the whole thing toppling down like so many dominos:
Lizard_King wrote:
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
All your 5/6 stat is talking about is ownership of guns, irrespective of the nature of the crime committed. So don't pretend its the conclusive statement you make it out to be.
Don't play semantic headgames with me.
1. Page 1, FIRST PARAGRAPH An estimated 18% of State prison inmates and 15% of Federal inmates reported using, carrying, or possessing a firearm during the crime for which they were sentenced. In 1991, 16% of State inmates and 12% of Federal inmates said they were armed at the time of their offense. Please note that 1991 is a second set of data, 1997 is the examined set of data from which the 18 and 15% statistics - and the corresponding 83% and 87% statistics for handguns - are drawn.
2. Page 3, left column inset - "Percent of inmates carrying a firearm during current offense"
3. Page 3, in the text of the left column: "Inmates reported that a handgun was their preferred firearm: of those carrying a firearm, 83% of State inmates and 87% of Federal inmates said that they carried a handgun during the offense for which they were serving their longest sentence." That's just during their longest sentence, mind.
4. Page 10, Table 13 The Final Clarification Is Here. This table makes a distinction between 'possessed' and 'used' and clarifies what percentage were using and were just possessing. Unfortunately, it excludes criminals with multiple sentences, such as those tacked on for carrying a firearm during an offense - I don't see any other way to account for the discrepancy between the statistics on this table and the others unless possessed means 'carried but did not use.' The following tables helps explain why this is so:
5. Page 11, Table 14 - Difference between 'usage' types explained here.
Finally, the killing blow:
6. Page 11, text of left column "about 1 in 20 and 1 in 10 Federal inmates regardless of type of offense said they possessed a firearm but did not use it."
That would be game, set, and match. Now admit it - 85% of all gun crime is handguns. The language of the report very clearly indicates that this is the case in the text as well. I think handguns would be great if they weren't so damned useful for criminals, but they are, and there are plenty of better ways to defend yourself available for most situations if you don't want to go through the paperwork (and loss of search warrant rights) of a Class II license. Losing your freedom from search is not a big deal, either - the FBI can enter your home at any time without a warrant as of the time of this writing so such a freedom is illusory anyway.
First off 40% of handguns can be pushed out from possession by anyone who isn't willing to tolerate police inspections via legal methods (see that page I linked). The other 60% will have to be cleaned up via sharply increased handgun-specific penalties.
Bullshit. One, this 60/40 of yours, while plausible, is only part of the story when it comes to the actual crimes being committed (as I pointed out above). Two, the only way that 60% you so daintily toss aside will be dealt with is with Giulianiesque "brownshirting", which seems an unacceptable solution to you. Already we are looking at significant extra penalties for ANY firearm use; much like hate crimes legislation, all your focus provides is a symbolic victory with little effect on actual crime.
You need to go beyond hate crime penalties and get criminals to think of handgun crime as equivalent to first-degree murder in how much they'll pay for it, for one. Secondly, from that DOJ PDF (the fuo one), the overwhelming majority of guns used in crime are made in the last three years. It will take about three years to start seeing serious results from such a move, but it will happen. In order for that 80/20 stat you cite to become my 60/40 yes, one would need to start requiring current handgun owners to license their currently owned weapons, yes. I don't like it but with 40% of handguns for crime being 'borrowed' a grandfathering clause seems rather stupid.
And don't knock Glocks on the basis of wholly subjective "don't feel right" opinions. They involve trade-offs, sure. But they are the only handguns that you can clean fully in 2 minutes flat with minimal practice, operate with a minimum presence of user error, and not have your pants fall down due to their weight. And since you like statistics so much, talk to the millions of law enforcement officers that use them as their primary weapon.
Odd, I thought the difference between law enforcement and the military was that as a result of the XM9 trials for the new official sidearm (the Colt 1911 successor) the military went with the Beretta 92F and law enforcement largely side with the SIG P226 - and the military lost because the resulting M9s (their designation for the Beretta 92FS) had a frequent problem until later production runs with the slide literally popping off and into the user's face during firing. I knew the Glock 17 was becoming more popular in law enforcement but I wasn't aware it was anywhere near the 'millions' stage yet.
--SB |
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brain food, brain good food. by FOF 05/16/2003, 6:19am PDT 
Yeah, I do: trust Chomsky as much as you would Limbaugh by Senor Barborito 05/16/2003, 7:25am PDT 
Re: Yeah, I do: trust Chomsky as much as you would Limbaugh by Lizard_King 05/16/2003, 1:50pm PDT 
Are you SURE you're not Diotallevi? NT by Nick Detective 05/16/2003, 1:55pm PDT 
Dio is an actual Scientist, LK is apparantly sko liberal-arts student. -nt- by Chairman Mao 05/16/2003, 2:42pm PDT 
His attitude is also better. (A HSW -> BDR-esque transformation?) NT by FoK 05/16/2003, 2:46pm PDT 
Yes. I am sure I am not Diotallevi. Whoever that is. NT by Lizard_King 05/16/2003, 3:31pm PDT 
This one... by Chairman Mao 05/16/2003, 3:40pm PDT 
not mine. just something I read and find interesting. NT by Lizard_King 05/17/2003, 2:17am PDT 
Re: Yeah, I do: trust Chomsky as much as you would Limbaugh by foogla 05/17/2003, 4:42am PDT 
Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by Senor Barborito 05/17/2003, 5:22pm PDT 
Re: Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by veronica 05/17/2003, 7:36pm PDT 
Re: Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by Lizard_King 05/17/2003, 11:42pm PDT 
Re: Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by Lizard_King 05/17/2003, 11:27pm PDT 
Re: Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 7:27am PDT 
Barbie: Thank you for not buying a gun. NT by The Entire World 05/18/2003, 9:22am PDT 
You're welcome by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 9:25am PDT 
A G11? NT by Entropy Stew 05/18/2003, 12:56pm PDT 
No :) by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 2:46pm PDT 
I think this would be more your style by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 3:00pm PDT 
I bet that site gets quite a few visits from confused german teenagers. by foogla 05/18/2003, 4:14pm PDT 
I thought German losers acted out their fantasies with world wars. NT by Godwin 05/18/2003, 4:17pm PDT 
no those are the german winners :( NT by foogla 05/18/2003, 7:46pm PDT 
Abdication + Suicide after defeat = winner? NT by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 8:01pm PDT 
that's not me. NT by Moab 05/18/2003, 8:08pm PDT 
Chicken NT by some other agitator/fag 05/18/2003, 8:16pm PDT 
Re: No :) by Moab 05/18/2003, 8:07pm PDT 
Re: No :) by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 8:15pm PDT 
Actually, I'll concede this point at least by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 8:54pm PDT 
Re: Actually, I'll concede this point at least by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 9:07pm PDT 
We love Glocks! by The Wu-Tang 05/18/2003, 9:47pm PDT 
...And Israel, too! by Surprised Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 10:04pm PDT 
So I guess I'm like the anti-Wu-Tang, then. WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU? NT by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 10:08pm PDT 
Cooler in the eyes of the Wachowskis, for one thing. Cracker. NT by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 10:20pm PDT 
Oh, and it also makes you "a big homo"... by Lizard_King 05/19/2003, 1:42pm PDT 
Nice troll by Senor Barborito 05/19/2003, 2:49pm PDT 
Oh, the irony... by Lizard_King 05/19/2003, 3:26pm PDT 
I hope you realize I was kidding about the Stg58 OSW being my choice by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 9:43pm PDT 
Quit fucking around and get a .50 cal, you pussy. NT by T. Nugent 05/18/2003, 9:55pm PDT 
Re: I hope you realize I was kidding about the Stg58 OSW being my choice by Moab 05/19/2003, 12:11am PDT 
There was no new text in your post or title. Help me out here. NT by Senor Barborito 05/19/2003, 12:13am PDT 
Re: I hope you realize I was kidding about the Stg58 OSW being my choice by Moab 05/19/2003, 12:20am PDT 
Fag. NT by Moab 05/19/2003, 12:29am PDT 
Re: Fag. by Moab 05/19/2003, 3:54am PDT 
I want to agree with you, yet you made yourself: fag. NT by Lizard_King 05/19/2003, 4:08am PDT 
Re: Here's your fucking 'non-existent' data by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 2:54pm PDT 
Killing you with my mind by Senor Barborito 05/18/2003, 5:13pm PDT 
Re: Killing you with my mind by Lizard_King 05/18/2003, 5:26pm PDT 
Girls put books in houses. by Monty Cantsin 05/16/2003, 11:20am PDT 
Stop by Entropy Stew 05/17/2003, 3:00am PDT 
Of Grammatology by Monty Cantsin 05/17/2003, 12:46pm PDT 
Antipostestablishmoderian by Entropy Stew 05/17/2003, 2:59pm PDT 
Monty burns two suckas to a crisp, neither is aware. NT by Film at Eleven 05/17/2003, 4:51pm PDT 
Quiet, you'll ruin it -nt- by Entropy Stew 05/17/2003, 5:11pm PDT 
NT by Monty Cantsin 05/18/2003, 1:11am PDT 
Re: brain food, brain good food. by mark 05/17/2003, 1:38pm PDT 
FAG!!!!!!!!!!!!! NT by Coulter 05/17/2003, 2:35pm PDT 
Re: brain food, brain good food. by Monty Cantsin 05/18/2003, 1:00am PDT 
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