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Forum Overview
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Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs
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by Commander Tansin A. Darcos 05/25/2013, 5:14pm PDT |
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Under The Bodhi Tree wrote:
Logic dictates everything is an effect of some cause. Going back infinitely through time, though, the only way for anything to exist is the primary, the uncaused. So was there an uncaused or is none of this happening?
I'll hang up and listen.
Love your guys's show.
You have a logical fallacy for the simple reason that you are attempting to assign a value, "cause" to something which cannot be valued, "the creation of the universe."
We are here, this which is around us is here, therefore it exists. If you want to argue a theory that nothing exists, then you don't either, and thus the only thing logically that you can do is shut up, offer no more theories, and die! If you don't exist or do not concede the concept of "existence" you can't ask any questions in a system which requires existence in order to raise the question in the first place, any more than you could, say, give an explanation on a chalkboard that there was no God, then when She was standing next to you, ask Her to hold the chalk for a moment while you erase part of your explanation so you can correct it to more clearly explain why there is no God. You cannot use the inverse of your argument or any of the premises that disprove it in order to make the argument.
(I'm arguing the point here simply for clarification, I remain neutral on the existence of God, and anyone arguing there is a God (or gods) has the burden of proof.)
I argue about this on the point of the minimum level of what consciousness is. You exist; this is unconditional and requires no proof because if you did not exist you could not ask the question. Your senses exist; this is also unconditional and requires no proof because if you had no senses you could not receive stimulation of the world around you sufficient to ask the question. The world around you exists, this is also unconditional and requires no proof because you could not experience the outside world around you enough to ask of it this question if there was nothing there; you can't experience something which lacks existence.
Even if the world around you were a simulation created by another part of your brain, that part of your brain would exist as a separate entity. So, you can argue it either way, the world around you does exist or there is another entity which is creating the world around you. Either way, there is at least one other thing in the universe beyond you personally. Also, the argument that the world around you exists is a stronger argument than the one that it's being simulated by a part of your brain for one simple reason: where did you get the information to describe the world around you and all that it contains, if you had no references to start with?
However, the mode of what the world around you is something that is not unconditional. Its existence is, but its content is not. As anyone who's seen "The Matrix" can state, the world around us could be a simulation being fed to us. The world around us is there, but it might not actually be as you think it is. That, I cannot prove, it is something that I believe. A belief in something you cannot prove is a faith. It is a good faith, it is reasonable to accept the world is as it appears to be, and it is necessary for survival to do so because if you do not believe the world around you is real and substantial, and you do not respond to the universe in that fashion, and you act in a manner which conflicts with what is necessary to survive in this world, you will die.
Play video games all you want where you run into traffic, and it has no consequences because you know that world is not real; it doesn't matter whether or not you believe it, it will not affect you personally. Run out into traffic in this world, and it doesn't matter whether or not you believe it, it will affect you personally and will injure you, maybe kill you.
And this is the one point that does require faith. It is a very tiny, very small leap of faith that the universe around you is real and substantial and is what it appears to be, but it cannot be proven by logic. It is a very good argument to make, and if nothing else, makes more sense than to think that some entity has a huge amount of capacity and is using it to simulate a world to you, but it is still not capable of being proved, for the simple reason you can't step out of reality, then "point" at reality and say, "it is there." But for the reasons I gave earlier, treating this world as if it is real is a better choice than the alternative unless and until you have proof to the contrary of its substantial validity as reality.
So the short answer is you can't really argue cause because you can't get out of the universe to point to it. It's entirely possible the universe has no cause, that it is an uncreated universe, that it always has been here and always will be here.
I might argue that the Big Bang is actually more like a "yo-yo" in that the Big Bang is simply the latest re-incarnation of the same universe that keeps repeating ad infinitem, the universe as it is is created, it grows, stops growing, shrinks back, implodes, then re-bangs again and we start the cycle all over again.
This universe might simply have been created from some other universe when something there happened that split this universe off from that one, and that "something" is what we call "The Big Bang," and maybe we'll trigger something to start yet another one, or maybe not. But this and the prior paragraph above are simply ways of offering a possible answer to your question.
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Post your questions here and drink from the Wisdom of Caltrops! by Mischief Shai-hulud 05/24/2013, 3:29pm PDT 
How can anything exist? by Under The Bodhi Tree 05/24/2013, 5:03pm PDT
Re: How can anything exist? by Mischief Shai-hulud 05/24/2013, 5:35pm PDT
Well, that didn't really answer the question. by Under The Bodhi Tree 05/24/2013, 5:43pm PDT
Re: Well, that didn't really answer the question. by Mischief Shai-hulud 05/24/2013, 6:03pm PDT
So nothing can exist, but everything exists. by Under The Bodhi Tree 05/24/2013, 6:13pm PDT
Remember, if reality doesn't fit your model, your model must be discarded! by Mischief Shai-hulud 05/24/2013, 6:17pm PDT
Hi, I called earlier? You quote more shit than Commander Tdarcos. Any fresh id NT by eas or what? When are Skippy and F 05/24/2013, 6:29pm PDT
Re: fresh by Mischief Shai-hulud 05/24/2013, 6:40pm PDT
You're alright, MM. Though anyone that needs to be told about the Prime Mover by fucking newbie 05/24/2013, 11:23pm PDT
Nobody answered the question, you just quoted dead guys and called it a day. NT by Pretty "weak tea" start yourselves. 05/24/2013, 11:25pm PDT
And here I was about to say something shitty to MM about biblical allusions. by fucking newbie 05/24/2013, 11:50pm PDT
no u r gay NT by lol 05/25/2013, 5:30am PDT
At long last, someone told me. I'm so relieved! I'm weeping. Like a girl. NT by fucking newbie 05/25/2013, 6:46am PDT
NO REFUNDS. NT by WITTGENSTEIN 05/24/2013, 8:23pm PDT
Nothing exists! Kill your parents, kid! NT by Worm 05/24/2013, 6:31pm PDT
Re: How can anything exist? by Commander Tansin A. Darcos 05/25/2013, 5:14pm PDT
Tell me about how you judge and classify games. by fucking newbie 05/24/2013, 11:26pm PDT
Does it do what it set out to do, and is it free of bugs and typos. NT by To that extent, a game is good. 05/24/2013, 11:28pm PDT
And yet the extension of this process results in as many different views as ther NT by e are posters here. Got any more? 05/24/2013, 11:38pm PDT
no u r gay NT by lol 05/25/2013, 5:31am PDT
We have a one-star system. A review is Positive or Negative. by Last 05/25/2013, 7:42am PDT
What makes a game fun for you, and how does it manage this well? by Aside from the obvious. 05/25/2013, 1:55pm PDT
If it's not clear, I'm asking because that's all I see right now. NT by fucking newbie 05/25/2013, 1:56pm PDT
Re: What makes a game fun for you, and how does it manage this well? by Last 05/25/2013, 3:59pm PDT
I'm thinking the two most desirable qualities may be SPEED and PRECISION. by Jerry Whorebach 05/28/2013, 2:21pm PDT
Have you considered PACING? by fucking newbie 05/29/2013, 5:08am PDT
Re: Tell me about how you judge and classify games. by Ice Cream Jonsey 05/25/2013, 3:43pm PDT
Given the nature of the market and product development cycles, is it therefore by as soon as they get formulaic. 05/25/2013, 4:03pm PDT
Given the nature of the market and product development cycles, is it therefore by Ice Cream Jonsey 05/25/2013, 4:41pm PDT
Glad to be of service NT by fucking newbie 05/28/2013, 1:41pm PDT
This describes me pretty well, too. by Arbit 05/26/2013, 10:31pm PDT
Re: This describes me pretty well, too. by Ice Cream Jonsey 05/26/2013, 11:12pm PDT
Emily Short does seem to get things right a lot of the time. by fucking newbie 05/28/2013, 1:38pm PDT
I like it when games trick my brain into releasing chemical rewards. by Jerry Whorebach 05/25/2013, 4:23pm PDT
Re: I like it when games trick my brain into releasing chemical rewards. by Ice Cream Jonsey 05/25/2013, 4:43pm PDT
Re: Tell me about how you judge and classify games. by Mischief Maker 05/25/2013, 5:18pm PDT
Does it have dress up? by Worm 05/25/2013, 7:23pm PDT
I like learning how to do stuff by Fullofkittens 05/25/2013, 8:57pm PDT
I found a guy who knows what he's talking about to answer your question. by Jerry Whorebach 07/19/2013, 3:53pm PDT
Makes for good reading. How does he do with other genres? by fucking newbie 07/20/2013, 1:09am PDT
When women squirt, is it pee? NT by Mysterio 05/25/2013, 8:05am PDT
Only if she doesn't love you, or is into pee. Or she does and you ask for it. NT by fucking newbie 05/25/2013, 11:24am PDT
I think they found the gland that holds the squirt. NT by Worm 05/25/2013, 2:51pm PDT
IIRC I read that it's just semen without sperm and supportive stuff for sperm. NT by Fullofkittens 05/25/2013, 4:25pm PDT
Has Tdarcos gagged on it? Commander, what does it taste like? NT by col.schickn 05/25/2013, 4:43pm PDT
It is however really fun to insist that all squirt is just urine! by Worm 05/25/2013, 6:29pm PDT
No. by Mischief Maker 05/25/2013, 5:31pm PDT
hot NT by fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfa 05/27/2013, 3:40pm PDT
Each season, I tell myself this will be the season MM doesn't post about semen NT by each season, I'm wrong 05/27/2013, 10:06pm PDT
Sorry baby, did I get some in your eyes? NT by Mischief Maker 05/27/2013, 10:21pm PDT
Just in case someone wants a scientist opinion instead of a womanless lawyer's.. by Still scripting in Lua 06/06/2013, 7:28pm PDT
Yes. by skip 05/28/2013, 8:01am PDT
Leave Momma Alone! by Ready to Live 05/25/2013, 7:40pm PDT
Fuck on weekdays. Or in secluded parking lots. NT by Last 05/26/2013, 3:47pm PDT
Which Caltrops poster is your asperger son? NT by Me? 05/26/2013, 7:48pm PDT
Re: Leave Momma Alone! by Mischief Maker 05/26/2013, 11:01pm PDT
Re: Leave Momma Alone! by The Warezwolf 05/27/2013, 12:18am PDT
Why does anyone think live music at a bar is a good thing? by fucks 05/25/2013, 11:25pm PDT
Not just that, bars and clubs are the WORST places to pick up women! NT by Commander Tansin A. Darcos 05/26/2013, 10:21am PDT
Why? No handicap restrooms? NT by Eurotrash 05/26/2013, 12:09pm PDT
No, (1) clubs and bars are noisy, u can't talk 2 her; (2) she has "shields up" NT by Commander Tansin A. Darcos 05/26/2013, 2:22pm PDT
That was a real virgin response, Paul by fucks 05/26/2013, 6:04pm PDT
I wish that Fussbett and Ray had been here to see this. NT by You Are The New Guard 05/26/2013, 12:51pm PDT
Ha! I was considered part of OMM's "Old Guard" long before they were around! NT by Mischief Maker 05/26/2013, 10:23pm PDT
It's young turks, because they're definitely not the master race. NT by fucking newbie 05/28/2013, 2:07pm PDT
Has there been a single porn watcher in history who enjoys the taint shot? by 8========D 05/26/2013, 8:50pm PDT
Proof Positive you aren't watching "Simulated" Sex. NT by Mischief Maker 05/26/2013, 11:02pm PDT
Well of course a fattie like you assumes that's the only angle you can see your NT by own dick from 05/27/2013, 12:54am PDT
Man Peeking out of the Closet by ANONYMOUS 05/27/2013, 8:37am PDT
Fuck on weekdays. Or in secluded parking lots. NT by Last 05/27/2013, 8:42am PDT
It's cold out here by Patrice O'Neal 05/27/2013, 1:03pm PDT
Maybe tell him to remember the most important thing: by Eurotrash 05/27/2013, 10:50am PDT
Or your son could by Mysterio 05/28/2013, 12:40am PDT
Tell him you're gay as well and ask him if he wants to end up like you. NT by Gutsby 05/27/2013, 2:10pm PDT
Hmm risky, his son might rape him on the spot. CAUSE HES A FAG/PERVERT/CHILD MOL NT by Eurotrash 05/28/2013, 4:41am PDT
Is Nintendo's Latest Console Fucked? NT by blackwater 05/28/2013, 12:26am PDT
Why, does it have an asshole and/or vagina? HUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHHUHUUUUUHUHUH by COMMANDER TACOS 05/28/2013, 8:05am PDT
They took that out in the American version. NT by blackwater 06/19/2013, 2:01am PDT
Seems like all new consoles are fucked. NT by Bring back the PS2 05/28/2013, 8:57am PDT
It was the last console I bought, and I liked it so much I bought two. by Jerry Whorebach 05/28/2013, 10:22am PDT
Nostalgia game successes and pitfalls, since Jerry and ICJ mentioned them. by fucking newbie 05/31/2013, 1:09pm PDT
Post your nostalgia games here if you like. I'll start, so you can all laugh by fucking newbie 05/31/2013, 1:20pm PDT
And Planescape: Torment, but that's the obvious one. Maybe less for you guys? NT by Not your era for nostalgia? 05/31/2013, 1:27pm PDT
This is beating a dead horse for me, but you're a newbie by Mischief Maker 05/31/2013, 3:08pm PDT
Thanks for flogging it anyway. What'd you think of Star Citizen, does it hook NT by you with nostalgia? 05/31/2013, 4:17pm PDT
And I invite people to link to the old discussions if they don't want to retread NT by fucking newbie 05/31/2013, 4:18pm PDT
Never got into the Wing Commander games by Mischief Maker 05/31/2013, 9:07pm PDT
Still thinking how to answer this one. XCOM did it wrong though, yes. NT by Ice Cream Jonsey 06/01/2013, 10:43pm PDT
What is it with nerds and white noise machines or noise canceling headphones? by fabio 06/01/2013, 10:01pm PDT
White noise machines allow you to sleep despite shitty garage band neighbors. by Mischief Maker 06/01/2013, 10:22pm PDT
What is it with nerds and white noise machines or noise canceling headphones? by Ice Cream Jonsey 06/01/2013, 10:36pm PDT
Why feminists are co-dependent with philandering Bill by Ray Gordon 06/06/2013, 9:14am PDT
Why is it no Apple products can be turned on below 5% battery? by re: 06/18/2013, 6:20pm PDT
Because Steve Jobs was a genius who revolutionized blah blah blah... NT by Tech Journalist 06/19/2013, 5:50pm PDT
Because they secretly have AIDS (electronic equivalent of) NT by Eurotrash 06/20/2013, 12:16am PDT
Drink from the Wisdom of Caltrops? How do you drink from a dry arroyo? NT by Commander Tansin A. Darcos 06/20/2013, 6:42pm PDT
Sounds like SOMEBODY's got sand in their vagina! NT by Mischief Maker 06/21/2013, 6:11am PDT
Sounds like PAUL's fucking insane NT by Eurotrash 06/21/2013, 11:41am PDT
Why did Reese's discontinue its one decent candy bar? by fabio 07/30/2013, 8:21am PDT
Crispy Crunch used to be one of my favourites... by Jerry Whorebach 07/30/2013, 10:47am PDT
I'm just going to talk about Crispy Crunch for a while. by Jerry Whorebach 07/30/2013, 12:05pm PDT
How do you feel about Paydays by the candy bar not the getting of mo 08/14/2013, 8:41pm PDT
I cook on a teflon pan. NT by Am I goin to die? 08/14/2013, 4:30pm PDT
Yes, but your eggs won't stick. A fair tradeoff NT by Eurotrash 08/14/2013, 10:19pm PDT
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