Forum Overview :: Gamerasutra :: No, fast min-max

[quote name="Senor Barborito"][quote name="Fussbett"][quote name="Senor Barborito"]Here's the problem with the Korean gameplayers on Blizzard.Net - they were first to champion the reduction of Blizzard's simplistic <i>rock/paper/scissors</i> game mechanics down to mindless algorithm execution. Rote algorithm execution is <b>NOT</b> strategy - chess is strategy. The point at which a game loses any intellectual appeal from explorations of positional combinations and devolves into unabashed clicking of buttons in a certain predetermined sequence as quickly as possible is the point at which the game has ceased to be fun in an objective and inarguable sense.[/quote] The point you miss is that when both sides are churning out units as quickly as the game will possibly allow, they are evenly matched and thus a higher level game unfolds (and I suspect, shockingly close to a tactics-based game we all crave). They actually do play the game beyond unit production, but unfortunately most of us get crushed by the sheer unit production early on. [quote][quote]Any game played at a high enough level is going to be boring to a patzer, which is what these whining douchebags are. Boo hoo! He beat me by hitting the ball to a place I can't reach <i>over and over again</i>. How is that fun? Maybe if you could figure out how to return a fucking serve the game wouldn't appear to be so "broken". Hitting the ball hard isn't the <i>point</i> of tennis, it's the point at which tennis <i>begins</i>. If you're playing someone who can hit hard then being able to hit hard is the entry fee you have to muster before the actual game, the deep game, the interesting high-level game even starts. In an RTS, clicking fast and knowing what beats what is the exact same thing. [/quote] I played tennis and chess each several times a week for years. Tennis is a mental game about position and outwitting your opponent - recombination creates a functionally infinite number of tennis moves much as chess does. There is a game played at a high level because of these infinite possibilities. In Warcraft 3 or Starcraft any player with the right build order and unit production order who can click faster than you will beat you <i>every last goddamn time</i> no matter what you do, end of story.[/quote] Pete Sampras doesn't have to use any tennis techniques AT ALL because you can't return his serve. Koreans don't need to flank you because you didn't live past their opening rush. [quote][quote]Jesus, who complains about clicking in a <i>computer game</i> for godsake? Do you complain about button pushing in Virtual Fighter? Aw, he just pushed the buttons faster than me. Yeah, well sort of, I guess. Awww, he knows the combos, he knocked me down and took the football, he memorized the dictionary, he studied openings, he bet more than I could afford, he practiced, he worked, he won. Let me let all you rts-dilettante, Korean-hating motherfuckers in on a little secret: you weren't out-clicked, you were out-played. You don't have to like it, but please shut up about it. /mc[/quote] There comes a point in the game where it literally comes down to who can push the unit production buttons faster because absolutely every 'good' player uses the same build order, the same units, and the same strategy (RUSH). At this point the game is reduced to an exercise in who can click faster and this is exactly what happened to Starcraft.[/quote] Here's where I'm totally lost. Can someone link to some Korean movies that showcase this insane clicking ability? This assertion that building more units is a result of fast clicking is lost on me. Last time I played Starcraft I remember build queues and waiting for things to be built. I never remembered once thinking "if only I could increase my index finger speed..." In any case, if everyone is using the same build order, the same units and they arrive at the same time, doesn't that turn the resulting battle into something akin to Myth? A purist tactical game where resource management is irrelevant? [/quote] Unfortunately no, because the game inevitably devolves into 'RUSH THE CENTER AND PUSH HIM BACK INTO HIS BASE' Tug of war. All the development that went into Starcraft, all the millions of hours that have been spent playing it have reduced it down to a game of fucking Tug of war. Tell me you don't see something wrong with this. There's nothing extra-special about Korean fingers or manual dexterity - it's just that at least as far as I and many other people could tell the powergaming madhouse click-frenzy rushes centered around min-max that reduced the game to tug of war came out of that community. It was frustrating as fuck to encounter because you'd try doing something original time after time only to be overwhelmed in a frenzy of non-stop clicking. The 100% efficient build order + the one or two best units that could be obtained quickly just over and over at you like a million fucking bugs in Starship Troopers. To me RTS games are invalid unless there is an actual balance between rush-tactics and turtle tactics and Starcraft was when I really sat up and noticed 'Holy shit everything I liked about this genre is dead.' --SB[/quote]