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by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 9:19pm PDT |
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laudablepuss wrote:
Did I mention that Scotty brought a burn victim to the bridge? All the way from engineering? I did? Okay nevermind, I have plenty more. Speaking of shit you can't believe the director didn't reshoot, how about the guy who blinked his eyes closed after he was dead, right before Khan says "I will avenge yoooou"? Pretty embarassing. Or the prop in engineering that was killing Spock with radiation not being secured to the floor? Hey, why don't they have robots or something to do dangerous stuff like that anyway?
Have I won yet? Should I continue? (Warning: I'm not sure I can. :( )
Here is the thing, though - and yeah, Wrath of Khan had some silly parts. (The burn victim that Scotty brought forth was -- IIRC -- supposed to be his nephew or something. It's not mentioned in the movie, I don't think. There is no logical reason to bring him to the bridge and if Meyer cuts the scene explaining who the hell he is in relation to Mr. Scott, it's dumb to have him anywhere on the ship later.) (Especially since -- this is a whole other thread -- but Trek NEEDS and has always needed some younger actors when they were doing the TV shows, so that there can be one guy in his athletic prime when they get around to doing the movies. First Contact got around that with Lt. Hawk, but they should have had Wheaton shooting people in the face in 9 and 10. Wheaton definitely should have had Riker's fight at the end of Nemesis, which was possibly the most unbelievable part of the entire movie. But again, that is a whole other thread.)
So while you are correct that Wrath of Khan had some pure cheese, it works better than Nemesis because every single character in the movie in WoK is iconic. And I don't just mean the minor characters like Scotty and Chekov, who will be a part of our culture in the same way we associate Thor and Loki with the Norse - Wrath of Khan worked because they got lucky with the original series, in that Ricardo Montalban:
1) Played a guy in Space Seed that was absolutely a match for Kirk AND Spock
2) Became a huge star in his own right
3) Was in the public consciousness because of Fantasy Island
4) Didn't let himself go
5) Was available for WoK
I would say that Nemesis would have had a chance of working, had anyone bothered to develop an antagonist for Picard and Data in the 7 years of TNG. Q doesn't count, because he can "do anything." The Borg, by their nature, don't lend themselves to a single charismatic cult of personality like Montalban. There was also that girl archaeologist, who doesn't get the nod because she's a girl, which really just leaves Professor Moriarty and Lore.
Moriarty's out, because the guys in charge of Trek at the end probably had no idea where he came from. Lore would have been the best choice... but hey, Spiner didn't want to do Data any more. Nemesis would have been a thousand times better if a CGI Lore was the villain. People would have been quoting that movie as much as they quote Wrath of Khan, because Spiner could make anything sound devious, clever and cruel when he was "being" Lore.
Instead, for Nemesis, we get some tool who never appeared in the original show. And I am not even saying he's a bad actor, he was fine with what he had to work with - but Christ, ever since the scene where Kirk got his bifocals, an underlying theme of Star Trek is that it's okay to grow old. Nobody was going to buy Picard being in danger from some kid, even if he was his own clone. Again, not that the guys in charge of Trek at the end had any appreciation for the themes of Trek movies #2-#6.
I am not going to say that the emotional reaction resonating from our culture, the 60s, the 70s, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and Montalban makes any sense. Who doesn't hate either the 60s or 70s? But the three best Trek films (WoK, TUC and FC) tap into antagonists that were fleshed out in the shows. The worst, like #5, simply make up some dude we know nothing about. As we are sitting there being told things in the first act of a movie we are expected to go OMG, instead of previously having been shown things in the TV series. And to no surprise, the random Hollywood screenwriter writing a shitty Trek movie is inferior to the shared North American mythology of the Star Trek TV shows.
(And, of course, all of it is ultimately irrelevant because the highest grossing Trek film was the one about the dolphins.)
the dark and gritty...Ice Cream Jonsey! |
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I personally guarantee the new Star Trek will be awesome. by Last 10/16/2008, 9:27am PDT 
what's the enterprise doing with a NT by steve jobs looking character? 10/16/2008, 12:22pm PDT
That's Captain Kirk, he captains the ship. by Last 10/16/2008, 12:46pm PDT
And you know a Star Trek move that features Kirk Mountainclimbing has to be good NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 12:49pm PDT
You're being sarcastic, right? by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 12:47pm PDT
Handheld cam shots of hip suburban Kirk and Spock talking about their favorite b by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 1:12pm PDT
Re: Handheld cam shots of hip suburban Kirk and Spock talking about their favori by Last 10/16/2008, 1:24pm PDT
Because they are about the movie? NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 2:31pm PDT
heh. . . Sulu NT by swallow. . . heh 10/17/2008, 3:44pm PDT
I will guarantee Last's guarantee by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 1:33pm PDT
Re: I will guarantee Last's guarantee by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 2:20pm PDT
Nemsis was without any merit by FABIO 10/16/2008, 3:07pm PDT
I'm aware of your (wrong) opinion. NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:13pm PDT
Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 3:30pm PDT
Also, to calibrate by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 3:31pm PDT
Wasn't there a scene where Picard and them were stealing the dunebuggy... by Last 10/16/2008, 4:05pm PDT
Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 4:14pm PDT
Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 4:17pm PDT
Re: Here is why Nemesis sucked: an opinion by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 4:19pm PDT
The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices thems by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:36pm PDT
Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:47pm PDT
Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 5:55pm PDT
Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:35pm PDT
Re: Actually perhaps they ARE very different movies. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:08pm PDT
Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:23pm PDT
Here's a Star Trek episode that laudablepuss thinks is really great. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:27pm PDT
That's the victory bell ringing. Thanks, it was fun. NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:32pm PDT
So you actually liked that episode? No wonder you don't understand why Nemesis s NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:37pm PDT
Re: Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:31pm PDT
Re: Judging by your post here, if you liked Nemesis, you'll love Voyager. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:37pm PDT
Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 9:18pm PDT
Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 9:33pm PDT
Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 10:02pm PDT
Re: Thought you could slip this in there, huh? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 10:58pm PDT
Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices t by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 5:52pm PDT
You must not have if you don't see how Nemesis ripped off Wrath of Khan. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:18pm PDT
DS9 isn't Trek. It's a Babylon 5 ripoff. NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 6:27pm PDT
You watched Babylon 5? NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:31pm PDT
Also DS9 is infinitely superior to Babylon 5 for AT LEAST one reason. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 6:53pm PDT
Worf NT by Fortinbras 10/16/2008, 8:56pm PDT
Re: Also DS9 is infinitely superior to Babylon 5 for AT LEAST one reason. by Cannibal Dave 10/16/2008, 11:05pm PDT
Also, Jake Sisco NT by Guy Desperately Trying to Fit In 10/16/2008, 11:18pm PDT
Nog! NT by Fag 454 10/16/2008, 11:20pm PDT
Post leg amputation. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:09am PDT
You sure are smart. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 6:54pm PDT
I just want to emphasize by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:02pm PDT
Re: You sure are smart. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 7:04pm PDT
Re: You sure are smart. by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 7:11pm PDT
Re: You sure are smart. by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/16/2008, 9:19pm PDT
Re: You sure are smart. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 9:34pm PDT
First Contact was horrible and you know it. by Mischief Maker 10/17/2008, 6:32am PDT
I agree about the borg queen, and occasional cheesy moments. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 11:30am PDT
Here's a much simpler reason by FABIO 10/17/2008, 2:44pm PDT
When I got on the elevator, someone had already pushed the damn bridge button NT by Scotty 10/17/2008, 4:33pm PDT
We need a Caltrops ombudsman so I don't miss posts like this one NT by Ice Cream Jonsey 10/23/2008, 7:35pm PDT
I agree, that's a good post. by Fussbett 10/23/2008, 9:37pm PDT
DS9 never got bad, except for the Ferengi episodes, those pretty much sucked. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/23/2008, 9:44pm PDT
Goddamn, Creex. Goddamn NT by Souffle of Pain 04/08/2009, 8:28pm PDT
Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices by FABIO 10/17/2008, 12:28am PDT
Re: The Enterprise is almost totally destroyed and a main character sacrifices by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:50am PDT
The only single good part of the movie and of B4. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 4:16pm PDT
pictoral review of Nemisis that I happen to agree with by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/16/2008, 4:20pm PDT
Did you sleep well? I did; I'm 12 hours closer to death! NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/16/2008, 5:40pm PDT
That pretty much sums up why it's objectively awful by FABIO 10/17/2008, 12:07am PDT
yeah that's why I posted it >:( NT by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/18/2008, 10:19am PDT
Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Cannibal Dave 10/17/2008, 4:12pm PDT
Re: Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 4:16pm PDT
Re: Laudable, the ultimate troll? by Mischief Maker 10/17/2008, 4:25pm PDT
My favorite is the one with the whales. :( NT by Fullofkittens 11/29/2008, 5:01pm PST
That's what my sister calls it. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/29/2008, 5:07pm PST
Are they trying to bring the Smallville treatment to another nerd franchise now? NT by FABIO 10/16/2008, 3:07pm PDT
Re: Are they trying to bring the Smallville treatment to another nerd franchise by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:17pm PDT
Stupid apostrophe. :( NT by laudablepuss 10/16/2008, 3:17pm PDT
Meh. Focus on characters and story arcs are what killed the Trek franchise. NT by Mischief Maker 10/16/2008, 4:30pm PDT
No, Voyager and Enterprise and being on UPN killed Trek. NT by Horrible Gelatinous Blob 10/16/2008, 5:52pm PDT
Pineapple cake killed Enterprise NT by Entropy Stew 10/18/2008, 2:56am PDT
"The weapon" killed Enterprise by FABIO 10/18/2008, 2:54pm PDT
There wasn't really any point in making Enterprise, period. by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/18/2008, 3:37pm PDT
You don't understand, it was an analogy for September the Eleventh. by Jerry Whorebach 10/18/2008, 3:57pm PDT
Also, Nosferatu builds an orbital laser beam to blow up Vulcan by Mischief Maker 11/26/2008, 7:26am PST
ok, I am interested and hopeful by Weyoun Voidbringer 10/16/2008, 4:25pm PDT
Re: ok, I am interested and hopeful by I need clarification 10/16/2008, 11:27pm PDT
Maybe slightly below average with some good parts. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 10/17/2008, 12:01am PDT
Next time, on a very special JJ Abrams Star trek (on the WB) NT by Fortinbras 10/16/2008, 8:51pm PDT
It's not like the original Chekov and Sulu needed the work... OH WAIT :( by Jerry Whorebach 10/18/2008, 2:12am PDT
You misunderstand, Doohan only fingered her. *BA DUMP PAASSSH* NT by Last 10/18/2008, 10:52am PDT
The new Enterprise is terrible. :( NT by laudablepuss 11/12/2008, 7:17pm PST
almost as terrible as the tos enterprise by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/12/2008, 9:09pm PST
TOS enterprise doesn't look enough like a cock for you? by Mischief Maker 11/18/2008, 8:09pm PST
That's . . . bizarre. Does somebody really think this? NT by laudablepuss 11/25/2008, 6:59pm PST
Nobody wants to weigh in on the new trailer? by motherfuckerfoodeater 11/18/2008, 3:54pm PST
I like how Nosferatu has a switchblade scepter. He's the bad guy, right? NT by Mischief Maker 11/18/2008, 4:40pm PST
The stuff exploding was neat. NT by laudablepuss 11/18/2008, 5:01pm PST
Tween Kirk was a retarded asshole? Cornfield shipyard? Otherwise, looks ok. NT by Last 11/18/2008, 5:16pm PST
The Apollo program was the final word on spaceship construction, apparently. NT by laudablepuss 11/18/2008, 6:26pm PST
Seaquest, Enterprise, and now JJ Abrams Star Trek all start with cornfields NT by Fortinbras 11/18/2008, 7:32pm PST
I wann be on the spaceship, dad! by FABIO 11/18/2008, 11:23pm PST
That story is easily as good as the Doom movie. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/18/2008, 11:56pm PST
Apparently the version I first saw was edited for vomit prevention. by Mischief Maker 11/25/2008, 6:53pm PST
Hey wanna play Thelma and Louise ha ha waaaaaaa look out look out look out look NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/26/2008, 4:13am PST
So in anticipation, what's your vote for the all-time worst TOS episode? by Mischief Maker 11/23/2008, 8:25pm PST
The Halloween episode was pretty bad. NT by Jerry Whorebach 11/23/2008, 8:52pm PST
spocks brain and that other one by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/23/2008, 9:26pm PST
The Conscience of the King. Horrible. :( by laudablepuss 11/24/2008, 5:15pm PST
A ringa ding ding ding.......... ding. NT by Creexuls, a monster >:3 11/24/2008, 5:16pm PST
what halloween one? by Weyoun Voidbringer 11/24/2008, 5:18pm PST
Re: what halloween one? by laudablepuss 11/24/2008, 5:54pm PST
Re: what halloween one? by krd 11/24/2008, 8:05pm PST
"The cat is the most ruthless, most terrifying of animals." NT by Spock 11/24/2008, 8:12pm PST
Early reviews are positive. by Last 04/08/2009, 9:18am PDT
Re: Early reviews are positive. by Souffle of Pain 04/08/2009, 8:31pm PDT
94% on Rotten Tomatoes with 109 reviews. NT by Last 05/07/2009, 11:51am PDT
Star Trek: First Contact - 91% GO SEE IT FOLKS NT by Fortinbras 05/08/2009, 9:17pm PDT
sometimes RT is right (then again they gave over 90% to michael moore's "films") NT by Weyoun Voidbringer 05/09/2009, 12:41am PDT
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